What do you think of the Education White Paper?

[Shamster]

Our head went through the key points at last nights staff meeting and the effect was pretty depressing. Sounds stupid but two of us almost started crying! Just wondered if anyone has read it for themselves, rather than picking up whichever bits each paper decides to highlight according to their leanings. If you have; what do you think?

Like that, claig but don't you mean stickle bricks. I need to feed my poor child now...

Are you implying that I'm a stickler for phonics? I'll have you know I'm quite relaxed about phonics and agree with you, LilyBolero and granted. But don't tell anyone, or all hell will break loose.

No claig, I wasn't. I was referring to the fact that several of us on here are teachers and therefore flinging stickle bricks might be appropriate. I could have easily said lego bricks. I'm 100% with LilyBolero and granted. I really had no idea that phonics was such a controversial issue. I still don't know hat happened to the thread. I think I need to work on my communcation skills.

actually it's both claig

Look at us, all smiling now.

If you're going to merely mention phonics, it's best to don an asbestos suit. Even the devil himself has been burnt by the subject and refuses to have any more to do with it.

I wish I hadn't mentioned the 'f' word, I mean 'ph' word...

I was always brought up with the advice that one should never discuss religion and phonics. Occasionally I forgot, and was soon reminded of the sagacity of that statement.

All's well that ends well and all that.

Come on mrz, gi's a smile.

Not engaging with the phonics argument here, but think how it would play out differently under the white paper.

Here people with various views are rationally debating methods on the basis of evidence. Parents can contribute, and considerable expertise is coming from teachers, it's a 2-way street.

The White Paper world is that teachers do something and if parents don't like it the school is closed or transformed into something parents will accept. No debate, no rationalism, no acceptance of expertise (which, in any profession worth the name, produces disagreement NOT consensus).

That's what's wrong, not what is said, but how it envisages avoiding ever having to say anything again because in Gove's New World parents ALWAYS know best.

"The tone of mazieD's post to LilyBolero was patronising, whatever the sentiment behind it. Perhaps expressing oneself in a less sarcastic way would make the point more gracefully."

I'm sorry Shamster. I have made several posts on this thread in which, I think, I have carefully explained why mixed methods are not a Good Thing for teaching children to read. I have pointed out, with some degree of passion, that there is a very significant number of children who are badly failed by these methods, children who don't deserve in any way at all to have 'failed'; lovely children who I work with daily and who are perfectly capable of learning to read if taught 'properly'.

Then along comes someone who claims to have read the thread and proceeds to tell us that her kids are fine and mixed methods are the way to go.

Oh, so that's OK then; sorted... I'm afraid something snapped.

I know what you mean about talking down to parents and I know that many , many parents have been fobbed off with the 'trust me, I'm a teacher' line when there is something very obviously wrong in their child's education, but Im not trying to fob anyone off, it would just be nice if people were to listen.

Mind you, I found this the other day. I think it exemplifies what happens in the 'reading debate'!

Unfortunately Shamster learning to read has life long consequences. This summer has been awful for my family because of the long term consequences of my DH being taught Look and Say. How do you think it feels for an intelligent 10 year old not to be able to read and then not be able to do subjects in secondary school because you are told you are too stupid. DH went on to get top marks in the country one exam he did and become a professional engineer, but he has long term mental issues because of it.
It gets very irritating when the likes of claig who is not a professional, or has children with sld problems decides to entertain themselves for the evening using her basically ignorant theories.

I haven't read the White Paper, but isn't this listening to parents thing just spin? isn't it like Labour's Big Conversation where they listen with a deaf ear?

Sorry, missed all the kiss and make up stuff...

Can't we start another thread about the white paper? Perleeeeeese

There have been some good points made but who can wade through this lot to find them or respond.

I would point out also that Maized, mrs and moondog do give a lot of help to people on these boards

claig

No, it's not just spin, it's a fundamental reorganisation of the education system so that funding and even if a school stays open is brought more into line with parental preferences.

Which is not a good thing, any more than letting patients decide what drugs they take would be.

Plea (not to go back to phonics) for help and advice-posted about DS1 and phonics (verbal dyspraxia, bad sounding, but good sight reading vocabulary) on SN:Children section. Would value mrz and others' professional advice if they have a mo (which they wonderfully often seem to..)

But if the parents decided that there should be more dance taught at the expense of mathematics, would that be allowed?

I am sure you are right that it is a fundamental reorganisation of education. But is it using parent power as a figleaf to cover the real agenda of taking education out of the state's hands and allowing private organisations to enter?

AdelaofBlois, I agree with you. Gove is on his own little mission and he will achieve his Hogwarts vision with or without schools' and parents' support. I have never disliked a politician so much. Even my very right ring mum can't stand the man is is becoming worried about what he wants to do to schools. SEN children are already losing out in our area due to funding cuts from an already inadequate fund. It's really worrying, to me.

I have full respect for Mrz. Moondog is confrontational, swears and has been unpleasant and rude. I don't care how valid a point somebody has, it's the way that it is made that matters; anyone can put somebody down. MaizieD, I'd love it if you started a debate about the white paper. That is what I wanted to do so please; feel free. I too am struggling to pull apart the phonics from the rest of the thread. Some people have made really good points about the paper and then gone again, when they saw what was happening.

claig

From what I can see, yes. The paper seeks to prevent this by remaining wedded to league tables, testing and such like information for 'consumers', and preserves a core curriculum, but a school could skew resources in this way if parents wanted it. Whether there would be enough parents in an area wanting that to make it happen, on the other hand...So it's really dogma at the expense of evolutionary science that is let loose, not performing arts.

Don't think it's a figleaf-think its a dual piece of politicing-destroy teachers (usually more left-leaning than the Tories)' power over training and schooling and give it to parents (who can be) and corporations (who generally are).

The interesting test will come when the Daily Mail goes ape about rich Hampstead Heath liberals setting up an academy to teach their kids bolshevism on state money...

yes it will be interesting, when schools are set up to teach things that the Mail doesn't approve of.

I heard a Professor the other day talking about a huge change in how teachers are trained, which ties in with the supposed 6 week training for ex-service people. He said the unions are still probably unaware of the extent of these changes. Do you think there is anything in that?

ffs maizie, I don't think my children are the 'only children in the world'. Doesn't change the fact that ds1 didn't 'get' phonics at all. So if you are rigidly stuck to 100% phonics, what about the children who simply don't understand them, don't respond etc etc?

That's why I think 'mixed methods' (by which I do not mean doing a bit of this, a bit of that, a bit of the other, but actually tailoring your teaching to the CHILD) work - so one child might do brilliantly with phonics, whereas another (me and ds1) would be left flailing. I can't see that that is so hard to understand.

You know nothing about what I do - in fact I am a teacher (though not in a school, or of an 'academic' subject). And I have to teach reading music as part of that. And you know what - I have to tailor the way I teach that, depending on the child. Some children (and again, ds1 is like this) get the idea that 'this note is A, so play this note', some children don't have the middle bit, so they know what key a printed note corresponds to, but wouldn't necessarily get the note name, some go by the sound (dd is like this) etc etc. If I stuck rigidly to one system, a certain number of children wouldn't learn to read music at all.

I think you were patronising, as I specificaly said that a sample of 4 is not enough to draw conclusions from, I'm not saying 'ds1 did this, therefore write the whole NC around him'. But I don't think it's rocket science that different people learn in different ways, and part of the art of teaching is to reach children in whatever way they respond to best.

As far as the 'using picture clues' goes, I still think it is useful - because it opens up a lot more interesting stories. Taking ds2, he only knows a few words as yet, he is getting good at sounding CVC words out, but his books would be pretty dull if they stuck to those words. So one word per page will be a 'picture' word, whilst the others are words he either knows or can work out, and that seems to suit him pretty well, as he gets an interesting story, and practises his reading.

AdelaofBlois,
I have time because school is closed, several inches of snow here (and more keeps falling).

I think I'd rather be at work, though. The kids don't argue...

What worries me most about the white paper is that it seems like a return to a mid 19th century (before the Act which made schooling free and obligatory for all children); lots of different organisations providing education at all levels in society.

What happens to the children who no-one wants to educate; either because no-one can see a profit to be made from them, or because their parents are unable or unwilling to push for them? I can forsee 'sink' schools serving an illiterate, disaffected 'underclass' who no-one wants to teach and no-one will want to employ. And no welfare benefits to keep them quiescent.

Seeds of revolution there, I think...