Coping with Teacher Training days

[bacon]

I'm new to education, DS1 in reception DS2 19 months old. But this is really going to get right up my nose. Teacher training days tagged onto half terms. 1st one Friday just before the weeks break.

How do mums cope? Ive got something planned - booked months and months ago and have to leave really early and now just checked diary and DS1 is home and I'm paying for DS2 to be in nursery!

Why cant they do these training days in the evenings or even Saturday morning like the rest of us? Why has education have to be so disrupted? Surely with the number of weeks off they get it wouldnt be too much to expect a few days to be put towards training?

Struth, we are self employed here, hubby never hardly gets time off, when we were farming we worked well unto the night, expected to get up at the crack of dawn, 7 days a week, working when completely exhausted and so hanging and no paid holidays!

So many families are struggling with childcare, trying to hold onto their jobs, and then this is slapped in our faces.

Surely this doesnt happen on the continent??

Haven't read much of the thread but i work in a Secondary school (VA) in an admin capacity. Most INSET days the head organises a very expensive 2-3 hour (alcohol included) lunch for staff!! Not sure what training takes place. Admin staff are certainly never offered the chance to do any training.

'I make sure I make an effort to sort out childcare. Unlike you. You just moan about how the school should do it for you. Nothing like taking a bit of responsibility for your children, eh?'

I think this is a truly disgusting attitude. Even after everything I've said and others have said here, you are saying that because I and the many other working parents on this thread and in the country in general, happen to have nobody who I can trust to look after my children during the 4 days of INSET per year I am making no effort, moaning and taking no responsibility for my children.

Shame on you. That honestly makes me feel sick.

And I seriously think that anyone who is actively against setting up systems to help working parents go to work confident in the knowledge that their children are being well cared for (even if they choose not to use these theselves) needs to ask theselves why they take this attitude. Because I've yet to here a good reason.

This is my list of favourite bad reasons:

1. The school which manages to accommodate all of the pupils and staff on a normal school day mysteriously contracts during days of INSET such that it can no longer accommodate the staff and a proportion of its children.

2. It is much better for parents to struggle individually to find childcare for their children than work together to ensure a provision which means all of their children could be adequately cared for.

3. It gives some people a great deal of pleasure to call parents who are not lucky enough to have people who they can trust to look after their children and who live close enough to them irresponsible, disorganised, incapable, moaning and pathetic. They also like to revel in their own superiority and much better organisation skills because they happen to have friends and or grandparents and or relatives who are able to help them out. This is entirely because of their superiority and nothing whatsoever to do with chance. This is a pleasure which would be denied them if there were an after school provision for those who needed it.

4.) The school which is perfectly safe on a normal school day suddenly becomes unsafe for children on INSET days.

5.) This is probably because the people employed to look after the children may once have been on benefits.

6.) On the other hand, it is bad to train people and vet people who look after children (not sure why, something to do with this costing money).

7.) It is very costly to use school buildings to look after children on INSET days even though they are already being used for the staff.

8.) When parents whose children are looked after by friends, sixth formers or mad grandmas, they remain remain responsible for them and their moral superiority is intact. On the other hand, parents whose children go to out of school provision are shirking their responsibilities as parents. Not sure why but logic is optional for some people on this thread.

9.) It's impossible to have out of school provision on INSET days. Oh, actually it's not impossible because it's already up and running in some areas. Ah, but because the service is so popular it must be failing. Oh, ok then it is possible but we still don't want it even though we don't need it but hey, if we don't need it why should anyone else want it?? Oh, we find it difficult to imagine how anyone could struggle to find childcare on INSET days because we don't so it must be because of their inherent inferiority and our relative superiority. Great, we can continue to feel good about ourselves, don't need to feel any sympathy for parents who are struggling and in fact can use the fact that they're struggling to criticise them..

fivecandles Tue 26-Oct-10 08:17:59

This is my list of favourite bad reasons:

1) The school which manages to accommodate all of the pupils and staff on a normal school day mysteriously contracts during days of INSET such that it can no longer accommodate the staff and a proportion of its children.

as stoats pointed out (and yes you quoted her post saying they can do it!) for the type of childcare required on an Inset day there is a ratio of 1 adult to 8 children rather than the normal 1-30 on teaching days. So the setting would need to find 4 times as many staff as they normally employ which is why stoats says they can only accommodate 45 out of the 350 pupils seems quite a good reason really.

) The school which is perfectly safe on a normal school day suddenly becomes unsafe for children on INSET days.

that one you would need to take up with insurance companies who really hike up the costs

It is very costly to use school buildings to look after children on INSET days even though they are already being used for the staff.

I don't know about your school but we rarely have Inset in school especially if we are combining with other schools to share the cost of the trainer

On the other hand, it is bad to train people and vet people who look after children (not sure why, something to do with this costing money).

It isn't bad to train people but it takes three years to train someone to level 3 where they can be left in charge of young children.

Any idea of the cost of CRB checks? for five days a year ...

Fivecandles. You find my attitude disgusting? The attitude that since I chose to go back to work, it's my responsibility to find childcare for my chidlren on the days that I'm at work but they're not at school?

You're right - absolutely disgusting. Revolting, even.

You haven't commented on my link to the legislation explaining that if you really have childcare issues, you are allowed to take time off work. I guess that's because I've actually come up with a solution, but you're so far into your moral martyr hole that you can't actually see that.

There are a great many reasons why schools cannot and should not remain open for convenient childcare on INSET days, not least the ones that mrz has mentioned. The staffing would be difficult - how many people, seriously would take on a contract for just 4 or 5 days a year? Very few. And at the school my DTDs attend, Breakfast/Afterschool club (no holiday club) are run in one room and can accommodate about 32 children in any one session. If everyone who works wanted to use that facility for INSET days, there would probably be about 300 children (that's assuming that only half of the parents work - it's probably more like 450 (big school)) so where would they put them? And who would look after them? Who would arrange activities for the day (half an hour before school and an hour afterwards is considerably easier to organise than a full day), what about lunches? Would you expect the school catering staff to sort that? Or would parents send in packed lunches?

I genuinely don't think you've thought this through - you just want someone else to give you a solution because you can't be bothered aren't "lucky enough" to have someone else to mind your kids for you.

INSET days are a fact of life, so what tyou can't change, how about making it work to your advantage? I love INSET days, 'cos we can go to museums,theme parks etc and they are half-empty as all schools don't have them on the same day. Everyone who has kids and wroks has to make arragnements for childcare, what I find much more irksome is that at the end of term they break up at 2pm,rather than 3.30 - why? No good reason for that - tho' needless to say the schools object if you take them out for that day to atch dvds at home instead of them doing it at school...

Fivecandles, you have said that there is someone who looks after your children when they have an inset day and you are teaching. So you have found a solution to your problem.

As I have said, there is an out of school facility at my children's school. It is adjacent to the school building, so not actually using the school premises. So your points about using the same premises as school don't apply here.

What point is your point number 5 trying to make? I have no idea whether people who have and will care for DS and DD have been on benefits and I don't care in the slightest.

Why do you presume to know how all people and schools feel? All schools are not the same. There will be an optimum number of children in an out of school facility and depending on the size of the school this will or will not be financially viable. I'm not sure what percentage of children in a school will attend an out of school club, and this will differ in different areas, but it will be harder for a smaller school to support an out of school facility.

You seem to be being agressive to some posters and I am not sure why.

Noah, it was mrz who was horrified to think that some people who might look after children during INSET days might be taken off benefits. She was then horrified to realize that they would, in fact, be CRB vetted and trained. She also suggested if you look back the thread that children would automatically be unsafe in this sort of scheme.

Some of you are clearly ignoring or deliberately misinterpreting my points so I won't go over them again. Except to say, no I haven't got someone to look after my children during INSET days. My dp's parents live 300 miles away, mine are too ill and all my friends who live nearby are also teachers. I once used a childminder which was a nightmare for all sorts of reasons (I won't go into the ins and outs but my kids were miserable until I picked them up) and since we've moved, is nowhere near us. The chances of finding a childminder who has space on those particular days is minimal. In fact, what I do, and a great many people I know do, is take my children into work with me where they sit at the back of my classroom, which, you must see, apart from the insurance implications of that, is far from ideal. I am not willing to leave my children with someone I don't trust - i.e. a random stranger. I take it you understand that?

I am very far from the only person in this position. In fact, during the year, quite a number of teachers' kids trickle in to my work where they regularly cause mayhem in the staffroom, get lost in the corridors and a huge amount of stress for their parents.
As some of you are aware, teaching is hard enough and supervising the kids in your classroom is hard enough without having to supervise young children into the bargain. Other people on this thread have said that tehy end up leaving their children with people who are unsuitable (like mad Nanna) or, like me, taking them into work.

I notice that people in my position have now been hounded off here after being called 'pathetic' and 'incapable' and 'irresponsible' amongst other really unpleasant stuff from people in a more fortunate position as regards their childcare.

It is the attitude which says that that the fact that I have no alternative childcare during these INSET days is a sign that I 'can't be bothered' or am 'pathetic' or 'disorganised' or 'incapable' which is disgusting and insulting.

You know nothing about me or the efforts that I have gone to to try and find childcare for these days and I find it truly shocking that you use the fact that I have no childcare to make all sorts of assumptions about me. I find this incredibly hurtful especially given that this is a parenting website where you might expect support from other working parents.

It amazes me that you think it is so easy and yet it is generally recognized that childcare is a problem in terms of quality and expense on a normal working day across the whole country let alone for 4 random days during the year in spite of what I and others have told you and in spite of the national picture. So I can only assume that you attack me personally because of my lack of childcare during INSET days out of ignorance or spite or to prove some sort of unpleasant point.

I am also amazed that you continue to suggest that I 'just take a day off'. May be that is acceptable practise where you work but it really isn't where I work. I do have the idea that you should do unto others and I know, as a parent, I would not be happy if my children were left without a teacher for 4 days in the year for this reason. I work at 6th form level so my students are all exam/coursework classes where each day really matters. Aside from the problems for my students, I don't think their parents would be too happy nor my colleagues. I also have management responsibilities which mean I need to support my team. But, as I have already said, I would find that there would be consequences of just 'taking a day off' in terms of future promotion or even, in this climate, in job security.

Noah, I have never suggested that I know how all schools or all parents feel.

All I am arguing is that childcare during INSET days is difficult and schools or LEAs clubbing together might provide a service during INSET days to provide childcare for those who choose to use it.

I have said many times that this service would not need to be provided by each school or managed by the school at all. Like otehr successful examples here it could be managed by an external agency.

One thing my dcs' school does is to use volunteers from the 6th form to support its service and they then have something to put on their CV. Parents could take it in turn to volunteer when they are able. I would certainly be willing to do a day during my holidays if it meant I got a days childcare during INSET. There are so many ways in which such a system could work.

Why that is so controversial is really beyond me.

And I find it incredibly depressing that so many people are so against it.

Even more depressing that those people who would have no use of this service and are therefore all right Jack are so against it for others.

INSET days were taken out of the holidays so if they were not there they would be off anyway-or that is my understanding.
Schools are there to educate the DCs and staff need to be kept up to date, they are not child care providers. Dates are set a year in advance.

It's very strange that you perceive that other posters have been 'hounded' off the boards because they have the same view as your own. I can only see the opposite on this thread.

It's even stranger that you feel 'hurt' by people's opinions that childcare is your responsiblility - it's a popular opinion, and one that can and should be debated reasonably. People are allowed to have an opinion that is different to your own, fivecandles.

But I honestly can't believe you have the gall to claim that you are 'hurt' by other posters at all, given your behaviour on this thread. And this line is staggering:

'I find this incredibly hurtful especially given that this is a parenting website where you might expect support from other working parents.'

What, the kind of support where you literally harangue a poster with post natal depression off the board by repeatedly using an insult which she explained (perfectly reasonably) is very hurtful to her because of her post natal depression?

Your 'supportive' answers - "it's your choice to be on this thread having this argument. If you're not enjoying it you know what you can do."

and

"Bye then."

To another poster who explained about her difficult situation when she was widowed with two young children:

"I am a working parent and not as fortunate as you as I was widowed at 30 with 2 small children to support but never felt it was up to the school to sort out my childcare needs'"

'Well bully for you!!'

Nice, fivecandles, nice.

Not only is your style of posting unsupportive, it is also aggressive, nasty, dogmatic and thoroughly unpleasant, fivecandles.

I don't mind at all that your opinion on childcare is different to mine, and was happy to debate that, but you take every single differing opinion incredibly personally and lash out at anyone who dares to disagree with you.

You show absolutely no compassion for anyone's situation or point of view. Next time you feel 'hurt' by someone's differing opinion, I suggest you read this thread. It's a perfect example of how to be hurtful and treat others disgracefully - but it all comes from you.

You might find the following interesting. Either there is a wider problem or else there are lots and lots of disorganised, irresonsible, pathetic, incapable parents just like me

'Recent research has shown that the two biggest problems are the lack of childcare for children under two and the lack of after-school clubs.

There is only one childcare place available for every seven children under the age of eight in the UK.'

www.pcs.org.uk/en/equality/womens_equality_toolkit/childcare.cfm

'Providing support with childcare has significant benefits for employers according to the survey. Over half (52%) of big employers say it would ensure that they do not lose good staff due to childcare problems; 40% say it would help recruit new staff and 30% say it would be good for staff morale.

Other key findings in the MORI SRI survey include:

92% of big employers agree that there is a recognised business case for companies to introduce childcare and family friendly policies
74% agree employers should offer support with childcare for employees with dependent children

www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=987

'Anne Longfield, chief executive of the charity 4Children, says there is sufficient childcare out there for probably one in five children. "That means there isn't any for one in four," she says. "And that's in term time. When it gets to school holidays, there's a lot less, particularly as your child gets older."

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/aug/11/lone-parents-loss-benefits-children-five-school-age

And amazingly Newham offers childcare during teacher training days

www.newham.gov.uk/EducationAndLearning/FamilyServices/HelpWithFindingChildcare/ChildcareandPlayServicesforolderchildren.htm

'childcare is your responsiblility '

This is bizarre. Childcare by definition involves someone else being responsible for your child while you are not with him or her. Leaving your child with somebody else or at school is in no way shirking your responsibility as a parent. Agreed?

How are you acting any less responsibly when you leave your child in out of school care as when you leave your child with a childminder or friend or sixth former?

What a bizarre idea.

I am hurt because it has been said that I 'can't be bothered' to organise chilcare together with 'disorganised', 'incapable' and 'pathetic' when I have explained over and again that there is nobody to look after my children during 5 random INSET days in a year.

Can you honestly not understand why I find that hurtful and offensive??

fivecandles Wed 27-Oct-10 08:39:45 Noah, it was mrz who was horrified to think that some people who might look after children during INSET days might be taken off benefits. She was then horrified to realize that they would, in fact, be CRB vetted and trained. She also suggested if you look back the thread that children would automatically be unsafe in this sort of scheme.

Perhaps you could direct me to where I was horrified fivecandles as your version of events don't match mine. As well as your myopic view of the world you seem to distort facts to suit your opinion.

mrz on Sunday here:

'confident that their children are being well looked after.
by those unemployed people pulled off benefits '

and here:

'"let's puck people off benefits pay them the minimum wage and they will do a fantastic job of looking after our children so we can go to work"'

and here:

'no fivecandles I would rather see children safe'

No doubt you'll continue to backtrack mrz but the implications are obvious and they weren't just picked up by me.

I notice nobody is answering my questions:

1.) Can you not understand why I might be insulted and hurt at being told I 'can't be bothered' to sort out my childcare and am irresponsible etc etc???

2.) How is it any less responsible to leave your children with an out of school provision than with a childminder or sixth former? How is what I am suggesting in any way abdicating my responsibility as a parent?

It's tough, but it's your responsibility.

The hurt and offence is mostly from you, tbh.

I'm sure that soon, when you are the last poster standing, you will conclude therefore that you must be,right. But it will be because no one can reasonably debate with you - you hound people off the board with your peculiar mix of arrogance and over-sensitivity.

'take every single differing opinion incredibly personally and lash out at anyone who dares to disagree with you.'

That's not true at all. I'm very happy to discuss why providing an out of school service during INSET days is or isn't a good idea RATIONALLY. What I'm not so happy is the sustained personal attack that I've had to endure and which has involved other parents in my position for having the gall to suggest such a scheme.

'It's tough, but it's your responsibility.'

Eh?

What does that mean?

How is it any less responsible to leave your children with an out of school provision than it is with a childminder, friend or sixth former?

Feenie, I do think you'll find that I'm not the one callign other parents irresponsible, pathetic, disorganised, irresponsible and telling them they can't be bothered.

I could go on.

I'd look very carefully at who is hurling the insults if I were you.

'As I have said, there is an out of school facility at my children's school. It is adjacent to the school building, so not actually using the school premises. So your points about using the same premises as school don't apply here.'

And?

I've said it probably makes sense to use the school buildings since the likelihood is that they will be in use anyway for INSET and since they are designed to accommodate the very children who would be in them but I don't really care where the provision is held it could be in a spaceship if one's available as long as it's safe! Likewise with who staffs the provision as long as they are good and suitable.

Why the nit picking?

Why not just agree it's a good idea in principle instead of pouring scorn on the ideas and lauching personal attacks?

It was memoo who called your attitude 'pathetic', and you saw her off in a disgraceful manner ages and ages and ages ago. I think you can let that one go for now - so as you can see, I have a very close eye on who is calling the insults.

Sorry, can't find anyone at all who called you 'disorganised', but even if they did, it's hardly comparable to your incredible tactless treatment of at least two posters on this thread.

Irresponsible - you said this twice, btw. Again, hardly 'hurtful' in the truest sense, but failing to organise childcare could easily be seen as irresponsible.

So that's it. Your entire list of reasons for 20+ posts about how upset you are answered. No, fivecandles, I can't see why you are upset - but I can see how horrible and out of order you are to other posters.