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who have your school employes to cover ppa time

115 replies

codsicle · 09/09/2005 10:20

ok for htose of you who dont knwo teachers now have half and ady per week (!) to do planning preparationa and assessment

in that time your kid will be taught by someone else.

a lot of schools have recruited trained teachers for it BUT a lot of schools are doing it ont he cheap and using tas " supervised" byt he head. PSricularly on a friday after noon!!!( when kids are high as kites)

the staff do not have to remain on site at this time so there coudl be one head nad 10 odd tas.

i woudl urge you all to find out what your school has done for this time adn who is planning and supervising.

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annh · 09/09/2005 18:23

At ds's school, they are covering it by having a French lesson with the lady who does French club after school, no idea if she is a qualified teacher or not, but presumably is qualified enough from after-school activities to keep order - and is French herself! The remaining time they are have recruited an outside coach to take one of their two PE sessions. Only problem for ds is that this man is also ds's soccer coach outside of school and he thinks it is hilarious that instead of calling him Scott they now all have to call him Sir!

Yorkiegirl · 09/09/2005 18:26

Message withdrawn

basketcase · 09/09/2005 18:34

Despite being a secondary school teacher in my bc life, I had no idea that this was the case - 2 hours a week?!! Wow - teachers got it easy these days...

Thanks for highlighting this one coddie, DD1 just started at school and very interested to know whether this is happening and if so, how. Very small school (4 classes) so will be interesting to see how on earth they manage this.
I get the feeling that I am turning into the aprent from hell...

basketcase · 09/09/2005 18:35

oops, did a coddism there - meant parent from hell (of course) doh!

codsicle · 09/09/2005 18:45

annh think that is hte sort of hting that is happening a lot

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codsicle · 09/09/2005 18:45

think a lot of tas may uunderstimate how hard it woudl be to keep order alone imfo

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clary · 09/09/2005 20:38

We have recruited a teacher I am happy so say.
I think we should publicise this fact more as I agree with Coddy, a lot of parents are not aware that their kids are being taught by a TA.
Hula is right of course that HLTAs are not unqualified, but still, not teachers...
Our "rival" school has appointed a TA who is training to be a teacher as the named class teacher for one yr 1 class this year
I'm sure she's a wonderful person but she's not a trained teacher yet!

yoyo · 09/09/2005 21:18

This is a really interesting thread Cod. I have my second Governors' meeting next week so it is timely too.

Our school is using the regular swimming as PPA time (the Head will assist with classroom assistant). French is to be given by a French lady who teaches after-school clubs (concentrating on learning vocab, playing games and singing songs). There is also a "specialist" sports coach. In addition DT will be taught by classroom assistants.

This week DD (Yr 5) was taught bonjour, salut and au revoir (hmm..knew these in nursery when they did French topic). Sports coach told giggling girl to shut up and called another boy stupid. In DT she will learn how to make a cup of tea (I don't allow her to drink it). Not the best of starts in my opinion and half a day seems excessive. Most taechers seem to think they don't have enough teaching time to meet the curriculum requirements as it is so would think this will make things worse. Raising standards in our schools? Think not. Pay teachers more to start 30 mins earlier each day.

Expect much quiet nodding of heads in the meeting.

nikkie · 09/09/2005 21:28

Sorry but I am a TA (SEN , so a very different job to mainstream) and I am quite offended that a TA cannot keep control as well as a teacher.
I do agree that Teachers should be covered by teachers as part of my job involves unofficial planning (In my own time and I'm not the only one) and I believe that this is not my job.
BTW at my school teachers now have 3 hours a week and many still come in at 8 am and finish at 5 , and work in hols.

clary · 09/09/2005 21:51

nikkie I'm not sure who's sayign a TA can't keep control (I'm certainly not!) but I personally would not be happy if anyone other than a teacher was, errr teaching my ds1's class.

roisin · 09/09/2005 22:00

Staff without QTS are not allowed to teach classes. They are allowed to supervise classes and learning, and carry out certain prescribed tasks.

I'm a (relatively new) cover supervisor in a secondary school. I may let you know later in the month whether I can keep control as well as a teacher! My first solo cover is on Tuesday

Having said that since I started in June I've seen a very wide variety of levels of "classroom control" from qualified and very experienced teachers (regular and supply).

nikkie · 09/09/2005 22:38

I totally agre that in a m/s environment a teacher should be in charge but how do you define teaching?
Is reading with a child teaching them to read?
IMO it SHOULD be a teacher in charge but a TA is not just there for cleaning, tidying and toileting-clue is in the name!
In secondary if it is a teaching lesson(rather than supervising revision etc) it SHOULD be a teacher.
In Primary a teacher should be in charge although a TA may cover in an emrgency(as in taecher goes home sickat 2pm etc) BUT a teacher should be employed where poss, especially when known in advance (like for PPA).
IF a TA is covering the lesson will still be planned by a teacher and should be a HLTA(I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS)

nikkie · 09/09/2005 22:42

Forgot to add, in a SEN school, when we have teachers covering they depend heavily on the TAs , as we know the children and their behaviours better.
BTW we always have teacher cover for PPA time except the nursery and post 16 classes which aren't covered by the guidelines.

happymerryberries · 10/09/2005 08:36

I keep typing this and no-one ever seems to read it

You don't have to have QTS to teach. You can teach on the unqualified regester. Numbers are not large but they do exsist.

I did it for two terms during my PGCE

blueteddy · 10/09/2005 08:44

In the school I work in, all PPA time is covered by TA's.
I am a TA myself & was collered into covering on a Tuesday afternoon, alongside another TA.
The teacher plans the lesson for me & we talk it over on the Friday. I then take the plans home with me over the w/e to go over them.
Tuesday afternoon is their art afternoon, so it is always an art lesson, sometimes followed by PHSE at the end of the day.
I am paid double time for the afternoons I cover the class & although I was apprehensive about doing it at first, I am really enjoying it.
All PPA time is in the afternoon at our school, so numeracy & literacy are always done in the morning when the teacher is in the class.

roisin · 10/09/2005 08:47

Hmmm...

I work in a secondary school with some children with very challenging behaviour (like many secondary schools). I have only been doing my job for a few months, but there are two people there who've been doing it longer and are successful.

Scenario: Geography teacher is away on a course. She sets some work for her yr8 class to do - read a page of the textbook, then complete a worksheet on the watercycle.

Scenario a) This is covered by a supply teacher brought in for that day, who has no knowledge of the school and procedures, no knowledge of individual children, very possibly not a humanities specialist, and may or may not be an experienced teacher with good teaching and behaviour management skills.

Scenario b) The class is covered by a learning supervisor who is specifically attached to Humanities Department. She knows the school very well, and many of the children - especially the ones who are more likely to cause problems. She knows the school policies and procedure on discipline, including praise and rewards as well as punishments. She has specific knowledge of her department subject area (in some cases to degree level). She has had training in behaviour management and classroom management, and is having ongoing training. She has done a great deal of classroom observation work and reports (as PGCE students do), she has her class supervision work observed and assessed by other teachers on a regular basis, both formally and informally.

I don't know if this job is going to work out for me or not. I'll keep you posted. I certainly won't do it if I don't think I'm doing a good job. But I do think some of you are not really aware of the options available.

Existing teachers now have an agreement that they will not cover for colleagues on short-term absences (i.e. meetings, courses, and illnesses). Schools simply cannot afford to pay supply teachers to do this work. And good supply is very hard to find. And the results of bad supply can be disastrous.

I do not claim that my training is in any way equivalent to that of a teacher. I could go and do a PGCE now, or possibly GTP in a year or so; but at the moment that's not a route I want to go down because I don't want all the additional stress and responsibility of planning, preparing, and teaching.

And I am very clear as to what I can and cannot do. If a teacher leaves me work that I view is 'teaching', I will not deliver it; and will feedback to the teacher.

Sorry this is so long - I don't know how many of you have made it this far. I'm a bit surprised at my frankness. But I do find some of the attitudes on here a bit surprising. My school have introduced these roles for two reasons: One Yes, cost-cutting, but the other most definitely as a solution to the serious problem caused by short-notice/emergency supply.

blueteddy · 10/09/2005 08:51

Forgot to add, I always cover PPA time in the yr2 class that I work in, so know all the children very well.

spykid · 10/09/2005 09:26

roisin
you can teach without QTS, it is paid on a different scale

spykid · 10/09/2005 09:32

I am a supply teacher in primary, and one of the schools I have been working at has started to use ta's for ppa time...ie me out of a job!

these ta's are lovely people and great at babysitting a class for a few hours, but is teaching really what is taking place? Surely 4 years of training was for a reason.
They themselves say they are very dubious about their new roles, and don't know where to take the children's learning if say they finished their assigned work and needed an extension... worrying

Am now working in a school where thank god they recognise the need for a teacher to be teachin during ppa time.

I realise these decisions are largely financially driven, but should tyhis be the case with something as important as our childrens education??!!!

Christie · 10/09/2005 11:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

codsicle · 10/09/2005 13:52

totally agree wiht spy kid lots of tas are great but to presuem a ta is a teacher is aking to a nurse being a doctor.

It ISNT the same and the thing is that a skilled teacher makes classrooom discipline look like a piece of cake
it isnt and I kwno.
I totally diapprove of Blair's mums army - if i want someones mum unqualified to each my army id do ti myself.

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codsicle · 10/09/2005 13:54

and
sorry hmb what was that?

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roisin · 10/09/2005 14:05

I think I should leave this thread alone ... but I can't!

Cod, I know a skilled classroom teacher makes classroom discipline look easy, but most NQTs don't, and many other teachers don't either. Behaviour management and classroom management can be taught and learned (primarily through observation, practice and experience, not theory, books, lectures and essays); why the objection to TAs, Cover Supervisors, or whoever learning those skills and 'babysitting' a class?

bee3 · 10/09/2005 14:05

And part of problem is that for PPA cover, specifically in Primary, class teachers should not be planning the work (defeats the object - getting 1hr 45 mins a week PPA time, then spending half an hour of it planning and talking through your cover lesson with the TA....pointless).

But that means are the TAs planning, delivering and assessing the lesson?

Teaching assistants are brilliant people, great at what they do, and a godsend to most teachers. But even Higher Level ones are only paid about £5.80/hour....I don't think it's fair to ask them to do all the prep as well as the teaching, and as a parent I would be unhappy about it on many different levels.

Mallarky · 10/09/2005 14:34

Well what amazing views and opinions about TA's HLTA'S and teaching generally-
Baby sitters wrap around care where does it end?
Professionally I am a HLTA qualified with a degree and starting next year will complete the PGCE course, a mother to three, and a govenor too!
The term 'teach' is too broad to define. But what am i doing when a child needs help spelling or colour mixing or finds numeracy tricky, or finds friendships difficult, of course I'm teaching. This is my professional role that has evolved over the eighteen years of working in primary education. During this time i have worked with many different teachers and outside agencys in school. I have attended specialist courses for TA's in both literacy numeracy and ict. I have a wealth of knowledge of the children/families in my care, this includes the schools aims, ethos and policies. Because of my hightened experience, asperations and professionalism my role in child education is i believe crucial to the 'child.' I do not cover classes for ppa nor would i. I am incredibly cheep!! Our head insist quite rightly that all ppa is covered by quilified teachers. This is invaluble for planning especially across key-stages, and hopfully makes moving classes smoother for the children. As it's just in it's infancy it will also be interesting to see how this develops and impacts on children in school.
I love my job, and the challenges it brings but to suggest that TA's babysit or do not teach is far too sweeping! Perhaps a mornings help in your childs class will allow you to see the important role that we play in educating children. P.s I also wipe noses wash hands, and clean up sick but that doesn't make me a cleaner, just someone who cares.

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