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Does private automatically mean "better"?

219 replies

sandyballs · 05/09/2005 08:13

Not trying to be controversial just genuinely interested in your views. The reason being, one of the 6 children in my ante-natal group is being privately educated and her mother is constantly going on about her daughter receiving a "better" education than the rest of them. I disagree. Views please but keep it calm

OP posts:
ghosty · 08/09/2005 09:09

I have not read any posts yet, so am just answering the original question of the thread.
I was educated privately (good school, not in the UK ... ). DH was educated privately (posh, well known public school).
I was a teacher for 10 years and worked in the private sector for 8 year (Prep schools).
My MIL offered to pay for our children to go to private school.

We turned her down.

So ... no .... I don't believe it automatically offers a better education AT ALL.

harpsichordcarrier · 08/09/2005 09:32

ghosty, can I ask why you turned her down? interested that someon with your experiences would choose to outside the private system (I think that's what your post means.

ghosty · 08/09/2005 10:04

Ok ...
TBH if we were still in the UK my answer may have been different although I still would have been reluctant for DS to go to private school from the age of 5. Where we lived in the UK the private secondary schools might have been an option for later ...
I think it all depends on your child and what you feel is important for him/her.
Please forgive the potential long windedness of this reply ... I can never put things succinctly!
My personal belief is that if you have an average to brightish child with no particular behaviour issues etc and if you are the kind of parents that feel school is important (and support of the school and what they do) and you are the kind of parents that do all the learning support that new entrants need ... and the state schools in your area are good then why spend the cash on something that may not guarantee a caree in medicine or whatever. Plenty of state educated children do well, go on to university and have good careers. Plenty of privately educated children go on to be drop outs and be addicted to drugs.
I felt that the private prep schools I worked at put too much pressure on children at a very young age. I have had stressy parents in my classroom asking why their child 'only' achieved 80% in a History test (we are talking Year 4 ... that is 9 years old). I have had an 8 year old tell me that his mum was going to buy him a laptop if he got over 80% in all his 'exams'.
I have seen young children upset because they don't have the same things their friends have (they might have their fees paid for by grandparents but their friends parents are loaded and have everything ... peer pressure is an awful thing at the best of times but when money is involved it is terrible)
I have worked in a school where the majority of 10 year olds have 1 and a half hours of homework a night.
I have seen 12 year olds walk around school like zombies because they are under pressure for Common Entrance Exams. One set of twins I taught were told by their parents that IF they both got a scholarship to Wellington College they would EACH get a brand new computer ... but they BOTH had to get a scholarship to the same school ... how awful must that pressure have been for them?
My cousin had the best education that money could buy and he, at the age of 38, has never had a job and is a complete tosser.
I had a boyfriend who went to a top public school for free because his father was a teacher there ... his sense of inferiority was tangible. He was never as good as anyone else in his opinion.
I went to a Exeter University and the majority of students there were ex-public school. Most, IMO were prats. Most of the ones that dropped out were from the best schools.
I think that yes, the academic education in private schools may well be better (depending on the school of course) but education in 'life' and what reality is is thin on the ground.
We were doing a topic about water conservation in class once and were talking about how to save water in a drought. One wonderfully polite and well spoken boy piped up "Oh, I know how to save water! Instead of using the hose to water the roses, you could use the water from the swimming pool and pour it over them with a bucket!"
DH and I just feel that we want DS to live in the real world. DH didn't know the real world until he was in his 20s ... he doesn't want that for our children.
Admittedly we made a big decision last year to move to an area where the schools are better than where we lived before (we were able to make that choice). At this stage we are confident that as DS is bright he won't have problems with his education and so why spend all that cash on private school when he has a great school up the road?
Also, another reason for turning her down is that we never want to be in a position where she has a go at us for DS going off the rails when she has spent all that money.
A friend of mine's DH works in a private secondary school and he says that the drug problems are worse there because the kids have money.
Another thing is that I know that I won't fit into the private school parent thing. Although very middle class and I take care of myself and all that I am just not a glam mum and here in NZ the private schools are all about what car you drive and where you shop ... NOT for me, definitely NOT!
Um ... hugely long rambly post ... sorry ... does that answer your question?

harpsichordcarrier · 08/09/2005 10:26

ghosty - how very very interesting. LOL at the bit about the swimming pool! reminds me of a girl I knew from college who arrived at my house in the middle of total chaos and said - oh you're so busy, need anything doing? do you have any flowers need arranging...
agree absolutely about the pressure.

sunnyside · 08/09/2005 11:33

Paolosgirl and ghosty have put what I was trying to say so much better than I did! All I managed to do was offend Happymerryberries!

It is the snob value and those who value the snob value that I hate!

This thread has really made me think though and I won't be quite so quick to jump to conclusions re. private ed. in future

Jimjams · 08/09/2005 11:45

I think there's a lot of reverse snobbery as well though. For example from this thread it seems that most people would assume that we are sending ds2 so that he achieves 1) good exam results and 2) goes to a good university (although i hope he's in state ed for secondary but anyway).

I'm not bothered by either. I don't care what his exam results are and I don;t care whether he goes to university. I would hope he finds some sort of passion, but I don't care what it is or how he gets there!

sunnyside · 08/09/2005 12:03

Again I'm sure that's right JJ. Just out of interest why did you choose private? Class sieze? Ethos? Luckily our local state schools are good, the local comp has a reputation for being a bit rough n ready but their results are as good as others in county with supposedly 'better' pupils.
I know that I have a tendency to reverse snobbery (IYKWIM): our nearest primary is the one with the 'best' catchment and many of the parents from outside lie to get their kids in. I think that's ridiculous but I was tempted to consider the bigger school in town as there isn't the snob value element there. I reconsidered as I think I would be doing the same as those I criticise but in reverse! I honestly think that where schools are of similar standard then everyone should go to the nearest. Probably far too simple a viewpoint!

Jimjams · 08/09/2005 12:26

A couple of reasons.

Mainly we need wrap around care- ds1 is severely autistic and has transport to and from school, so I need to be at home at drop off/pick up times.

Also our local State school (excellent SATS, highly oversubscribed) has a terrible reputation for dealing very badly with the high functioning autism/Asperger's. DS2 is not autistic (nor ds3 I hope!) but I do not want them to see these children being treated badly by the school ("driven out of school" to quote someone else. Also they wouldn't let me look around!

The next closest school is good (lower in league tables) but highly oversubscribed and we are out of catchment. If I got ds2 in I wouldn't necessarily get ds3 in. No pre/after school care so I would have a nightmare ever day arranging for ds2 to be dropped off and picked up.

We are alos lucky that we have a small, cheap(ish) private school close to us. We visited and it looked ideal for ds2 knowing what he is like. There is also a public school in the City - which we didn't want -0 and I hope they will siphon off the lifestyle parents (they're twice as expensive as well).

Jimjams · 08/09/2005 12:27

BTW I do know a child with AS who has gone through the private school we've chosen and been very happy there!

bugsysmum · 08/09/2005 12:32

Our two children have just started in a private school for the first time after several years at a lovely state primary. Two reasons: one, we were moving to Cambridge and couldn't get a place, visit or even apply to the state primaries before we can a signed lease or deeds (which we couldn't get because we couldn't sell our house...) and secondly because they both have some learning difficulties (daughter's are more severe, son's are mild) and we got them a place at a new school which provides "specialist" education in classes of 6-8. Hugely expensive but hopefully short term solution while we get 'strategies' for them that they might be able to take back into the state sector. The snob value factor doesn't even enter it - our reasons are purely practical.

heymissytoe · 08/09/2005 14:01

Must admit I have not read all of this but to answer the question briefly (or I will try oh no I won't) I very much echo much of what Ghosty (right name?) said. I'll bore you all again as I've replied to posts like this before, however when my mum passed away I became legal guardian for my brother and sister who attended boarding and private day school respectively. Eventually my brother transferred to the boading school where they both had scholarships to significantly help with the fees. Fees were (five or six years ago now) £5500 per term each child - yes thats right over £15k each per year not including uniforms, music tuition and extra curricular activities. As I say they both had scholarships and for me the boarding environment helped as I was effectively a single person looking after two teens - boarding meant full time care by me only in holiday times - a help in way - but to get to the point - just as ghosty said drugs were a very serious issue / problem as the kids had such great sums of money at their disposal - having been brought cars at the stroke of 17 etc some had drink driving scrapes earlier on than many other teens may have had. There were the occassional well turned lovely examples of "good children" but not as many as I'm sure my mum must have thought or hoped there would be in comparison to her more negative thoughts / stereotypes about state school. Incidently I went to a state school, and university and work (manage research), still work, bought my house at the age of 26, had my daughter at the age of thirty - so us state school rotters aren't always an unruly, undesirable, anti-social lot - Honest!
A good percentage of the pupils at the boarding school were absolute riots but did get their work (academic and vocaional ) done and my mum passed away and did not experience the issues that arose when I was in the thick of things. My mum naively thought there would be no peer pressure for boyfrineds girlfriends going out that kind of thing as peers would be well behaved and were at boarding school / safe environment after all? Oh dear - drugs, sex, exclusive night clubs (some taken there by older brothers and sisters) and much more were the norm - my sister tapped into some of it but was pretty much ok - my brother was in his element and joined in at every opportunity. Consequently I along with many other parents / guardians were called in to the school regularly but nothing changed. My sister did really well academically and vocationally but to be honest given the right environment she would have done well anywhere - we just didn't live near any good state schools (London Borough of Southwark - sorry sorry ) and no state schools offered the vocational training alongside academic that this boarding school did. My brother and sister trained at school (as well as pursuing academic route through to A-level) having started dancing early on with a scheme operated by the Royal Opera House. My sister left school three months early to start a west end musical theatre career which she is still sucessuful in to this day and achieved As in all a-levels, my brother was asked not to return following GCSEs effectively expelled, was expelled from six form college after only three months, did really well in his GCSEs but just really lacks confidence at the a-level stage so to date he's not completed any a-levels, doesn't dance anymore but flits form here to there and the other. His confidence can be low sometimes but its not warranted - he has talent and skills and really appreciates his achievements when he knuckles down and does well

The point is same school, same phenomenal private boarding schools fees, same extra costs and two very different results within the same family. We all had to deal with the loss of our mother, a single parent at the time, but my brother was always easily distracted in class, and loves to mess around.

Private does not automatically mean better education - bet everyone has said that - sorry for not reading the posts properly - my brothers experience Ithink would have been the same in state or private and similarly for my sister and the same goes for me - its the child not the school that makes the education better. In this day and age state primary schools are so well managed they offer equivalent and superior services at no where near the private costs. If there are no good state secondary schools in your area opting for the private should be based around whether your child will actually excel and even like that environment - as ghosty says there are different types of peer pressures operating at different levels here.

I only have one daughter so far and I would love for her to go to one of any three state primary schools very near to our house because they are excellent. The same issue remains about the secondary schools and I certainly don't want her to go to my old school (though things may have changed by now) we just want a good state secondary, mixed prefereably and properly mixed not too many boys and not enough girls, and where 50% or more are achieveing a-c grade in GCSE - where I live not one of the state secondaries meet this criteria - not one!!! all the private schools do three or four in total. but that is a whole other conversation - plus see above - they are not always a bonus. Good state schools for us means money and time to offer extra curricular activities without the burden of private schools costs - e.g. tutors, music lessons, sports clubs, HOLIDAYS, more holidays, and holidays - you get me point. With private schools you can and often have to do all these things with the added burden of fees that rise above inflation every year. The boarding school began at 3000 a term and ended at 5500 per term per child.!! And many children were not on scholarships!!

The comments at the antenatal group are tied up with a bit of snobbery. MY dp has a older daughter from a previous relationship and strugled to pay prep school tuition for years following pressure that older daughter was too bright for state school - she failed to pass any entrance exams this year for private secondary but is now going to an excellent non fee paying school because its around the corner- though she insists she is there based on a music scholarship - she failed grade 2 piano after getting into the school and says what's that when you ask her how she did in her musical theory? She's been having piano lessons for four years? but having failed to get into any private secondary schools following years of prep school fees her mother now declares she is a musical genius and attacks my dp if he begs to differ. I started piano and clarinet at state secondary many eons ago and the first grades I did were grade 4 for piano and clarinet and passed with merit, left that school with grade 8 clarinet and that was pretty average for us (the state school motley crew) somewhere along the line these snobbish attitudes about education creep in - and what is even worse than that is when the children start to mimic and spout this nonsense too? Bless him my DP knows nothing about music, has never been trained musically and knows nothing about grades and so forth so was pretty stunned when he realised a music scholarship" had been achieved based on no grades. He told me but she skipped grade one? He was told this is a huge milestone? After four years of piano tuition you are quite entitled to skip grade one but to then fail grade two speaks for itself. At my state secondary we all skipped grade one two and three and started on grade four having learnt to play the insturments of choice - and that was billions of years ago - again the snobbery thing is to say oh they got in based on exceptional abilities - but delve a little and you discover in quite a few cases the genius abilities are non existent, or the parents think the label private school reflects postively on them - meanwhile what is is important is the child and they can be overlooked. Do you want your child to mirror (my experience only) some of the idiots that you can come across at uni (ex private sch.) or to go around spouting scholarship nonsense and exceptional musical abiltiy based on a failed grade 2 piano? I mentioned this to one of my best friends bacuase I thought perhaps I am being unfair and evil. She has a degree in music and teaches piano - she laughed her head off - right off - sorry. evil I know. At state schools now you can choose to specialise in sport or music and so forth if the school itself has specialist status in these or other areas but they don't offer scholarships. If your child is doing well, is talented or otherwise it speaks for itself - no need to back it up with private school endorsement? but thats just what I think? I'll shut up now

PeachyClair · 08/09/2005 16:08

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SueW · 08/09/2005 17:30

Can someone explain to me about the specialist colleges that heymissytoe mentions in her post?

It seems to me from what friends have said that whilst schools have chosen to specialise, parents still pretty mcu have NO choice where their child will go because it's based on feeder schools and catchment areas rather than their child showing a particular leaning towards an area. And who'd know if their child had a flair for languages when most state schools don't teach anything other than English?

sunnyside · 08/09/2005 18:16

too true missytoe!

Blu · 08/09/2005 18:25

JimJams - do the state school in your LEA not have a 'siblings first' prioritisation?

Jimjams · 08/09/2005 18:36
  1. siblings in catchment
2. others in catchment 3. siblings out of catchment.

some years they fill up at 2.

We're out of catchment. It's no good anyway as I would have to be dropping off/picking up ds2/ds3 AND be at home to meet ds1 off transport.

heymissytoe · 08/09/2005 19:20

Jimjams is spot on - entrance to state school is based on catchment area / existing sibling etc - once there or once you are in it may become clear that the school is registered as specialist in whatever area sport or music and so on - this unfortunately does not mean if your child is gifted in x y or z that they will attend that school or can attend that school - that system is the preserve of private schools.

happymerryberries · 08/09/2005 19:22

And oddly just because something is, say a science school it doesn't mean that science is the best thing in the school!

I work in a language collage and the science results are almost always better at gcse and a level....go figure!

heymissytoe · 08/09/2005 19:29

Ah ha - happymerryberries I didn't know that - I guess that's another thing to cross check when we get to the secondary school thorny issue - oh the joy...

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