Does private automatically mean "better"?

[sandyballs]

Not trying to be controversial just genuinely interested in your views. The reason being, one of the 6 children in my ante-natal group is being privately educated and her mother is constantly going on about her daughter receiving a "better" education than the rest of them. I disagree. Views please but keep it calm

I would like to say that my 4 year old has been at a prep school since he was 2 and the education is certainly very different to what you would get in the state sector. He has learnt to read and progressed up the oxford reading tree he knew all his words he should recognise by the end of reception when he was 3 and he has been taught to swim. He has a dance lesson and gym lessons with specialist teachers as well as learning french and the violin. As he and the other 9 children in his class obviously have the capacity to pick up all this learning easily and without realising then I know that I would rather send him there than have him playing in a preschool. The behaviour is also an important factor in my decision. I went to private schools and agree that exam results are not the be all and end all but a happy knowledgable child who has good friends and loves school is well worth it. I don't leave my son from 8-6 only 8.45 when school starts until 3.30 but if I needed to I could all year round which really helps alot of parents. Regarding the qualifications of the teachers I would rather the teachers had a really good degree in their subject and the enthusaism that made them study it than that they went to teacher training college and learnt how to teach gcse science. The children respond much better to someone who can answer any question not just one that is covered on a national curriculum syllabus and they often have real life experiece of working with their degree prior to becoming teachers. Certainly at my sons school many of the teachers are Dr's and that can't hurt with the childrens hopes for their own futures. I do agree with previous posts that it is not something which you often discuss and I rarely mention where my son goes to school as it seems to create bad feeling - certainly I would never comment on anyone elses choice it is all about experience at the end of the day and I had good experiences of private schools and my partner was happy to go along with that.

After my experiences of teaching in the state sector I was determined my dd would never go through the state sector herself. After having dd the thought of sending her to a school similar to the school I had taught at ( a well known Beacon Status London school!) would keep me awake at night with worry.

When I moved to Lancashire I checked out all of the local private schools - five in total. the first, a minor public school, was very poorly equipped, the science labs looked as if they were out of the ark. The pre school facilties were awful although their extra curricular activities were good. I had concerns though about their rather woolly discipline and bullying policies. The school is also well known for its drug problems, although I did not factor this in my decision as all schools hve pupils who will take drugs, pupils with access to more money will just take more drugs.

The second school I had been warned about as it is notorious for only entering children who will get grades A-c in exams. I know people who have paid fees from pre school only then to be told there son/daughter will not be entered. Americascot said this happens in the state sector, from my experience of teaching in numerous schools students are only not entered if they have not completed coursework ( and teachers will do everything in their power and more to get even a few lines they can submit so this doesn't happen) or if the student chooses not to enter. I also know of families who have withdrawn thier children from the school as they found it difficult coping with the competitive atmosphere and hot housing. I chose to visit the school and didn't like the atmosphere. the choice of gcse subjects was not as wide as local secondary schools, focussing on traditional "harder" subjects. Again the policies on discipline and bullying were woolly. I already knew many families who sent their children to the school and they were not people I felt comfortable with, very money orientated. Before I offend anyone I am not making a blanket statement about the parents of all privately educated children, just the ones that I knew who sent their children to this school.

I also checked a smaller prep school, this had a lovely atmosphere but there was no playing field, little in the way of extra curricular activities and it was a bit insular.

The other two private schools were fantastic in every way, lovely atmosphere, fantastic facilties, broad curriculum, beautiful classrooms laden with pupils work. My only fault was with one teacher who didn;t seem to know the schools policies but as she was an NQT I put that down to nerves.

The only problem with the two good private schools was that one wasn't Catholic and I wanted dd to have a catholic education if possible and the one that was catholic was a longish drive away. So I decided to check out the local catholic primary attached to our church which has a fantastic reputation. It did not have the extensive flash facilities and all the extra curricular activities of the private schools but everything else was there and it was on our doorstep and dd would keep her friends from church so we chose the local primary.

As others have said the option to go private depnds on what you are looking for. In my case wanting a catholic education limited my choices and in the end I wanted dd to have friends on her doorstep. But choosing the state option is easy when there are good schools locally, I am hoping it will still be the case when we move as I doubt we will have the money to pay for dd to go private for her primary and secondary education. However the memory of my experience in the secondary sector still haunts me so unless the local secondary's are very good we will be choosing a private secondary school.

TS&P - why did you go through looking at so many schools if a Catholic education was so important to you? Why not start with the two Catholic options - one state and one private - and go from there?

We have two schools to choose from in the same walking distance. One state, one private. There's also a Catholic school is the next nearest but we don't attend any church. I hated commuting to school so my priority for DD was to be able to walk to school so we didn't look anywhere else at all.

I watched a number of friends go through the desperation of wanting their children to be in particular schools, not getting places, putting on waiting lists, withdrawing childen, moving house, etc. Ye gads. Thank goodness we didn't go there.

Firstly my ex was footing the bill and he wasn't particularly concerned about her having a catholic education. Infact he wanted her to go to the second private school I mentioned (which wasn't catholic), as he was paying and it was his dd I felt it right that I shoud check the school out. I looked at so many schools because I wanted her to go to the best school for her, I hoped it would be a catholic one, but as there are only two private catholic schools and one of those was a thirty five minute drive I looked at non catholic schools. When I started my search for schools I was only considering private schools I only visited my catholic primary on the advice of some friends and my priest.

I suppose when I started my search for dd school I assumed that private would automatically be better than state. It was only when I stopped being so blinkered and thought about what it was that I really wanted from a school that I realised how important a catholic education in my own community was.

I suppose it's a bit like the question 'Does money buy you style'?
No matter how much money you throw at some people they will never have any style, likewise throwing money at your childs eduaction won't guarantee you academic success. I understand the need for private eduaction and in certain circumstances I would consider it myself.

I would be really interested to know what people would do if they found themselves in a financial crises and could no longer afford the school fees particularily those where the alternative are sink schools.

but you're assuming that people are buying private for academic success. We absolutely are not.

I've said earlier that I had to leave the private system for financial reasons. It wasn't a big deal tbh.

ks - can't remember what week it was, or even if it was the Sunday Times (it could have been Times in the week, certainly one of the two.) The Times do have an online version, perhaps you could browse there. Not sure about the Sunday Times. I wouldn't look there for any real insight into the research process though. I find their viewpoint rather skewed. I just thought it was interesting, and I'd add it to the discussion. We look a lot at league tables and school exam results, but more and more children are going off to higher education, and their performance there is pretty important too! I'm also quite interested in how we educate boys generally (state or private) as ds has just started school at just 4, and I do feel it's a bit young. He is very outgoing and socially it isn't a problem, but he finds it very hard to sit still, and his fine motor skills are light years away from the older ones in his class, especially the girls. In some countries boys don't start school until they are 7, yet have caught up with their peers from other countries by 10. I found slik77's post interesting for this reason. ds did start to learn french at 3 and also has swimming lessons - they are two things I don't feel confident teaching him, but otherwise I'm happy for him to play, ask questions and enjoy being a child. He's learnt his letters and numbers through being naturally curious, as children are. I wonder if boys are turned off by our present system, in secondary schools too. I've gone off the original question a bit, but as I said, it's something that's on my mind at the moment.

I know not everyone tries to buy academic success. You did say earlier, sorry. My brother has his dd in a private school because they tolerate her excessive swimming ( she swims for her country). My SIL on the otherhand uses private ed because she is obsessed with academic success despite huge financial problems. These are the types of people that intrigue me.

ks - I'm sure the study itself was much less sensationalist in its conclusions - how the papers report it is another matter!

But your SIL sounds mad!

JJ. I know but most people can't seem to see this. Everyone seems to think she is doing the best for her children even though the family is buckling under the pressure.

What's interesting to me is that there seems to be an implication that we are not doing as much for our children because we are not willing to suffer extreme financial hardship/debt to facilitate our children going to Private School.

Ah I see why you are interested in the question. I don't know I feel I think differently than lots of people regarding education so probably not a very representive viewpoint. From your earlier post it sounds as if you SIL is a bit of a, well, snob (???) I suppose her children will be expected to suceed because "look what we did for you and how many hardships we suffered". That may not be fair, I don't know her.

Snob is probably an understatement.

private education has never been an option for us anyway, as I am a SAHM and DH earns less than I did, plus my three are very close together in age DS1's first state school was terrible: absolutely everything you dread, despite a great OFSTED and a good position in the tables. As people who may have read past threads of mine will remember, DS was described at a parents evening (before his AS was diagnosed) as sly and evil by his teacher there. When we discussed moving away for me to study, a new school was a major bonus, plus I didn't want DS's attending the same senior schools I attended.

The school here is classified as 'endowed', which apparently means it is funded by a trust set up huundreds of years ago. the catchment is tiny and everyone else slogs it out for a place, but we're fortunate to live in the catchment. The school is amazing! DS1 has blossomed since joining, he is much happier too. They're a religious school to a level where even I, a future RE Teacher, get a bit freaked but that seems to suit the boys, they like the certainty of it all. They can rebel against that later if they wish. The facillities are great, the atmosphere happy and I couldn't ask for more!

So I guess what I am saying is, non-fee paying schools vary so tremendously it's hard to compare them to private with any real accuracy. My own infant school was dire, stabbed teachers well beore it was news worthy. DH was sent to a rubbish one where he was nearly sent to a special school by a teacher who couldn't work out he was just shy, then the catchment areas changed and he was shifted to another school, a fab experimental school that trialled lots of new initiatives and is still winning awards today.

All kids are different, all kids are suited to different schools, the trick is matching them with the right one (and getting a plce obviously)

I think all schools are different however one generlisation is that fee paying schools have more options to adapt the class sizes and cuirriculum (sp?) than state schools.
I'd agree with the point made by skeptic? as well - why on earth would i want my child to learn how to deal with bullies and teenage yobs - at what point in his later life is that going to be useful to him?
Surely its better for him to learn how to present himself well, reach his full potential and hold civilised conversations - oh and have a level of ability to itneract with adults without swearing?

Not all private schools are good and nto all state school are bad. HOwever I do think that many people are beign forced to chose between their principles and their hcilds education. I intend to put my child first.
Oh and for those wanting local info - I'm in Hull - yes that city only just managed to scrape its way off th ebottom of the league table - and I have worke din schools as well in the city. Its not just the results its the udnerfunding, huge class sizes and the rather skewed social mix.
I can't see my son who is likely to be intelligent, artistic but dyslexic and 'posh'(if he takes after his dad and me) to survive particularly well in any of the local Secondary schools. I'll see how things go but at the moment if we're sitll here in 10 years time, and there hasn't been an improvement then he's going private.
(by an improvement I'd be happy with a school getting 60% passes and having some other middle class kids in it so he wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb.)

We are moving house to get into a catchment area so my daughter will be be able to go to the a very good nursery/infant/primary school.However I am concerned about the secondary available (shes only 22mths so have time yet!)as after my experience of a state system it will have to be exceptional for me to consider it.

I went to a lovely primary where I exceeded in every area.My local council ended the 11 plus the year before and although I sat the paper (our teacher tested a group of us)I had to go to the local state.

It was awful.ALL of the teaching time was sent gaining control of the class. And that was 25 years ago! Only a group of us left with O levels.The rest were pushing prams in 5th year or in Borstal!

Some interesting posts here. Just to pick up on the snob thing though. Having been to a good primary and a top rate secondary school (both state) and now both my kids going to excellent state primaries (that outperfom the local fee paying one), I question why on earth anyone from the areas that I grew up in and now live in would bother to spend the money on sending their kids to the private schools.
There are parents for whom private school is part of the 'lifestyle'. Can't abide that mentality.

I think that I saw that piece of research, but interpeted it as being that if you could get the best A levels to get into the best universities without the assistance of cramming and support that private schools can offer, then you were going to do well (period).

Reading the discussion here, I think that the key is a school that you and your child are happy with. It can go wrong anywhere, at primary school it's all about the teacher in each year - if the teacher doesn't like your child, or your child doesn't like the teacher then you have a huge problem. Peers are also hugely important, and probably more so at secondary school. Bullying can happen anywhere, and so can drugs, bad language, and to be honest thuggery.

Of course no one wants to send their child to a school that they are unhappy with, and we would all do our best for our children - in fact I think that for many of us it's the concern about our kids going to school with kids whose parents really don't care that causes the most worry.

We should all have the choice of a good school without paying/moving house, but sadly that's not always the case.

Private schools may or may not offer what some people are looking for. For me the idea of hot housing my children into learning all sorts of things that I really don't care that much about isn't it. But feeling that they don't stand out like a sore thumb is. Being liked for themselves even more so. Feeling confident in their abilities also. I agree with Jimjams about the wrap around care issues, although this is available from some state schools too (not mine unfortunately!).

Oh, and I was taught by an ex-CERN researcher when I was at public school. Nice chap, obviously very intelligent, but had absolutely no idea how to handle 16 year olds. Result - I dropped out of physics A level. Teachers go to teacher training courses for a reason - teaching is something you have to learn how to do! Granted there are also fully trained teachers who are terrible, but I do think that some private schools (and some preps are notorious) take on unqualified teachers as a cheap option, and others (like my old school) take on PhD types because it looks good on the prospectus.

My mother taught at state school and sent me to private school. Then she came and taught at my school. I hated her for it!

I think that we should all send our children where they are happy however we can, but refrain from boasting to others who may not be so fortunate. After all it might start a heated debate

My DS is in the local state primary - his class has 30 in year 2 and eg he hasn't been read to yet in the first week back at school - I know that the equivalent private school would have time to do more but IMO his confiendce and happiness is equally if not more important than his 'academic;' achiveents at htis astage. I have a feeling that the local prinate schools are so competitive academically that he would be miserbale and his confidence would be shattered.

If you child is good and sport nad fairly academic then hey would probably do better at the local private school but others may not do as well.

Just to repeat myself both state and private schools can emloy 'unqualified' teachers. I know, because I worked as one in the STATE sector before I finised my PGCE.

You are not guarenteeing fully trained teachers for your children in the state sector. But as a matter of fact most teachers in both Private and State schools are fully qualified

It may have been common 20 years ago to have untrained teachers in independent schools (albeit with degrees and possibly PhDs), but it's rare nowadays for new teachers to start working in the independent sector without a BEd or PGCE.

The main exception is for gap year students who often work in independent schools, mainly for games and boarding, but also for some cover work.

Not all private schools are 'better' or get 'better' academic results. There are some cr*p private schools out there. And some good ones. Same for state system.

(I was educated in both, btw.)