Middle-class parents would be unable to guarantee their children places at the best state schools by buying houses nearby

[mrz]

Middle-class parents would be unable to guarantee their children places at the best state schools by buying houses nearby

tokyo- I hadn't thought about the size issue , thanks for pointing that out.
I happen in live in a rural county that DOES have large comps, often around 1500-2000 but some as large as 2500 pupils. LOTS of school buses ( and taxis) and very large ( in terms of miles) catchments. Some of our kids come from a 30 pupil primary school ( where they may be the only pupil in their year group ) into a form of 30 in a year of 270 in a school of 2000ish . Its heck of a jump for them.

toyko - I think it is possible to run a 'full comprehensive' with less than 1000 pupils. It happens in the independent sector and in countries like Finland. The issues are adequate finance and attracting quality teachers. Yes, in small private schools subjects are limited - but this means they stick to core academic subjects (no media studies).

In terms of state schools - I think Camden Girls School has less than 1000 pupils and they make a big deal about how 'mixed ability' they are - yet even offer Latin.

But I do get your 'economies of scale' point about comprehensives (where funding and good teachers are finite) and I think it's the comprehensive school model's 'down fall' crowding in enough kids to make each ability level viable in it's own right.

"I think it is possible to run a 'full comprehensive' with less than 1000 pupils. It happens in the independent sector"

I think any use of "independent" and "comprehensive" in the same breath is pretty dubious. At the very least, independents today are the equivalent of comps in the days before inclusion, but in reality the fact that the parents are engaged and committed and the school has absolute control over both its intake and its continuing roll mean that the cohort can never be regarded as comprehensive.

"I happen in live in a rural county that DOES have large comps"

Which is a very good model, if the practical problems are solvable.

Acanthus - The wiki page is a pretty good overview: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_capital

I read a report once about an American schooling district. They set guidelines that ALL schools had to take in a certain number of kids who were eligible for free school meals so that basically the number of kids from poorer backgrounds was roughly even in all schools the rest of it was done on the standard admissions policy. Apparently it was a huge success across the board, the standards in all the schools improved dramatically.

I was state school educated, the year the grammar's were abolished. Although I did OK the expectations were low for everyone. We now live in Bucks and still have the GS's. Complete bun fight to get in, cannot pass without private tutoring etc. Anyone who says that they just turned up after a couple of practise papers and passed are fibbing.

Bring back grammar schools as they were run previously. There didnt seem to be this middle class obsession to get into one and then boast about using the state system. Consequently the bright but disadvantaged kids have no chance to get in at all which is not the spirit of the GS. The parents expecations dont always help.

We have opted out of all this and put our children into private schools. I have never regretted it for a moment.

"I think any use of "independent" and "comprehensive" in the same breath is pretty dubious. At the very least, independents today are the equivalent of comps in the days before inclusion, but in reality the fact that the parents are engaged and committed and the school has absolute control over both its intake and its continuing roll mean that the cohort can never be regarded as comprehensive."

According to the Barnados report few of state schools would meet your definition of 'comprehensive'.

Of course a private school's ability to restrict it's intake to those children it can actually support and educate well, is a major difference. Although, many private schools do choose to take pupils with SEN. Most of the recent rise in private school pupils numbers are said to be because of special needs requirements (Ruth Kelly is not alone in this).

As to 'engaged and committed parents' - tell that to the Head of Chartehouse as he tries to explain to Gary Linekar why his clubbing, Big Brother babe dating son, didn't get into university .

Having grown up in a rural area, our comprehensive schools were obviously truely comprehensive. People couldn't shop around for schools because they were too far apart.

It worked very well and I would recommend moving to a rural area to experience this kind of education, with few anxious parents.

Many of us did exceptionally well academically and therefore I would prefer this system to any other. (I couldn't bear to live in a grammar school area and listen to everyone worrying about the 11+ for years).

We now live in a similar town where there are 'popular' comps and less 'popular' ones and the middle-classes do get worried about secondary education. However, looking at the GCSE results yesterday, the comp. that is considered a bit 'sink' was producing children with lots of A*s at GCSE.

So, my perception in our town is that people worry unnecessarily.

Rocky - dh's niece passed both Berks and Bucks 11+ with no tutoring. She lives on a council estate and went to the local primary, which has an intake of working class kids. Maybe she's unusual but it is clearly possible for a bright girl to get into Bucks grammars with no tutoring. (Dh went to Challoner's and hated it, btw.)

Oh, and both the stats and my Mum tell me the old grammar school system was largely the preserve of middle class kids. She was VERY unusual as the daughter of a shoemaker who got into a direct grant school (i.e. a private school that took a handful of children who got the very top marks at 11+). Even those working class children who passed the exam often couldn't take up the places because their parents couldn't afford the uniform.

Edam, can I ask why your DH hated Challoners out of interest? Thanks.

In my area rural comprehensives are much smaller 500 -750 pupils. The school my children attend offers a wide range of science subjects including the usual biology chemistry & physics but also forensics and are also able to offer a number of MFL choices so small doesn't automatically mean limited subject choice

Cortina - he's 42, it's not going to be relevant to any children going there now, so don't worry! Most of his peers (he's still in regular touch with lots of them) went to top universities and have had very successful careers. I think that's probably still the case.

Giddy - sounds terrible. Round here the sibling rule still applies even if you've moved out of catchment which I think is very unfair. Loads of people rent in time to apply for no. 1 and then are guaranteed the younger kids can get in, even if they've moved out of our small town.

Giddy - the problem is whilst you may "settle for a mediocre school' many parents won't. If the good schools start to go downhill - there's a risk many families will go private, or move, or even home educate.

Labour's policy of heavy investment in schools in poorer areas (academies) together with pulling in bright middle-class kids (using fair banding) was a 'carrot' approach to the problem and has some success. But, the Gove plan to force middle-class kids into poor performing schools just ain't going to work IMO.

Giddy - I do see what you mean and, chances are, a bright well supported child will do fine in any reasonable school.

But, people who move to rented flats as part of the school application process or buy over priced houses near the school gates, are going to be one step ahead of Gove's plans!

Actually in the op's article - Gove's examples are (Labour) academies in deprived areas, using banding as a method for academically selecting 'middle class' kids from outside the normal catchment area. Nothing really to do with buying houses near schools .

In the LEAs which already operate "fair banding", do the parents get to know what band their children are in?