Middle-class parents would be unable to guarantee their children places at the best state schools by buying houses nearby

[mrz]

Middle-class parents would be unable to guarantee their children places at the best state schools by buying houses nearby

I think people don't want to send their children to sink schools because of the academic side but because their children will be bullied. My DCs, for example would be perceived as posh (we really aren't) if they attended a sink school in Edinburgh.

Edgar, I don't think private schools should be abolished but if the Tories think that middle class children would somehow miraculously improve a failing school why are private school children always left out of the equation?

So what would happen to faith school intake?

Most London LEA's already use fair banding, so it is a bit of a non-story around here. Banding tests are taken at end of Y5 by all children, even the children at private schools take them. They may even be the standard optional SAT paper for Y5.

We still have very unequal schools though. Every school admits children on the basis of distance, but there will be different distance criteria for different bands within the same school. So a high achieving school may have tiny catchments for top bands, and wider ones for less academic ones.

The reason schools are unequal still is that there are schools that no parent would send a bright child to. In these schools the top band places are unfilled. Brighter children often have choice of out of area grammars or private schools if parents can afford them.

is it true that intelligent people typically have better paid, professional jobs which in turn afford middle class lifestyles?

isn't it true that intelligence has a genetic link? and a environmental one?

So 2+2=4 i.e. the children of the middle classes are more likely to be more intelligent.

Faith schools also use banding in our LEA.

Near where I live, near to what the statistics say is a deprived area, the local Infants school gets Excellent Inspection reports. The HT and staff get nominated for National awards.

I take it you're not middle class then quinne?

That's some mightily simplistic thinking.

I predict a riot. For a start house prices will collapse near the best schools if tehre is no guarantee of getting in.

Middle class parents of all political allegiances will innundate the local and central Govt with complaints until the entire initiative collapses.

I am out of this lottery system now but where I live their are four moderate to good schools and I would'n't have a problem with dd2 going to any of the schools - apart form the faith school I wouldn't be happy with having to have had her banded and the chance of going there.

What would parents be able to do then if they didn't want thier dc going to a faith school - would they still have a choice on that or be forced to accpet?

Parents wil make multiple applications in the entire area covering every single possible option and then choosing the best of the options they are offered and travelling for miles to the best school.

Recipe for chaos.

UQD - totally agree with you on bringing back Grammar schools. My DSs go to a private Prep but if a good state Grammar school (which was not insanely selective) existed in my town that is exactly where they would be going at senior level.

This proposal seems worst of all worlds.

We still have two grammer schools in the county and if you want your ds or dd to sit the exam they can at 11 - bizare when the 11+ was dropped in the 70's

erm, because private school kids are outside direct government influence in terms of which school they attend.

quinne has a point. though research into IQ by social strata is a poison chalice (publish and say richer = brighter - prepare to be crucified! - just like I Zenk...) and i don't believe this has ever actually been proved...

Madeometimes: what you say seems to show it doesn't work. Inequality continues, and as most London boroughs have IIRR pretty poor outcomes compared to national averages, even the good schools are not lifting the banded pupils who end up there to any noticeable extent.

It's all a bugger's muddle, isn't it?

TheCrackFox and EdgarAllinPink, how would abolishing private schools bring improvement ? -genuine question.

Quinne, the vast majority of children have intelligence and abilities, not just middle class ones. How does a non middle class lifestyle prevents intelligence exactly? Intelligence and educations are 2 different things. Or should we stop saying working class and middle class and say stupid and clever instead then?

Actually, this is great for governments this middle class/working class debate; no need to get a headache improving a dismal education system, just pitch the lower orders against each others again (a trick the english always fall for), and they're to busy blaming each others to demand their due from the government. Most European countries manage to give the vast majority a good education without all this aggro.

I don't think it would. In the same way I don't think making middle class children attend some godawful sink school would raise standards.

They can't abolish private schools as they don't have the money to educate those kids in state schools. No-one's mentioned faith schools. Are they remaining untouched or can they stick with their admission policies? Can see lots more miraculous conversions then. They can't abolish state schools for the same reason they can't abolish private ones.

I would like them to make their minds up quick as we are about to move into the catchment area of a good school .

Don't bring back Grammar schools. Some comprehensives do very well, and some bright children do not pass 11+ (I know a lot of examples).

Isn't this just what they use to do anyway?

When I was 11 I took the verbal reasoning test and a written paper and was then banded by result. I was top band 1, and there were band 2's and 3's.

So when I applied to my bog standard and actually fine and even rather good in the sixth form, comprehensive, I part of a balanced intake from the three bands. This was in the 80's and I don't remember anyone's parents having a nervous breakdown over it.

It's a good system.

And every few months I am quietly thankful I don't have to put my dd's through the nonsense that is the 11+ which is, after all, only an indication of how well your parents can play the game.

There's a book by Malcolm Gladwell called Outliers. Notionally it's about how exceptional people go about becoming exceptional but along the way it tells you many times over that social background is by FAR the biggest indicator of future success.

The so-called middle classes (massive umbrella term) invest in their kids by passing on how to study, the value of study, how to talk to superiors without being deferential or chippy, etc, and then sometimes using connections to get them a broader range of experiences early on.

If you are the sort of parent who places value in the above, the last thing you are going to want to do is to send your child to a school where in social terms (peer pressure/lack of investment from teachers, perhaps, I don't know) that work stands a good chance of being undone.

(I write this as someone who received very little concrete help as I grew up, and went to a lazy highland comp where I can only assume the teachers are after a quieter life. I married a public school educated academic. Feel the weight of that chip! Gnnnnghghghg!)

Sorry - pressed post.
The point is that however schools are organised, however house prices vary, you won't take away the fact that middle class parents will be able to work whatever system there is to their kids' advantage.

At the moment where I live in the next 2 years you are just going to be thankful to have a place in a primary school as that many schools have been shut despite a rising birth rate, which means in 6-8 years getting a secondary place is going to be even harder than it is now!

what uneprune said