To tell you all that you are NOT covered by Paypal Protection when you buy from Ebay.

[LaurieFairyCake]

I have had my appeal considered and finished by Paypal and they have stated that I do not qualify for a refund as:

"The claim does not fall under Paypal's definition of significantly not-as-described and does not qualify for a refund".

the original thread is here

but the long and short of it is (for those bored by reading long threads) is:

1. The seller does not have to accept a return even if they put on the ebay listing that returns are accepted - they can just refuse to give you their address and ebay will NOT give it to you

1. The seller can claim in the listing and in the dispute case notes to paypal that the item is an orginal antique and still send you a modern piece and paypal will decide it IS still as described

I have no option now but to send it to Paypal (gulp!) by special delivery and then send the Royal Mail special delivery receipt to my bank along with an explanation and they will do a Visa Chargeback.

According to my bank it will then be up to Paypal to PROVE that the item is antique.

But for the next month I will have no item and no money while I wait for the Bank to resolve it as Paypal have 30 days to prove the item is as described.

So I'm warning you now - your Ebay buys are not covered even when you think you have buyer protection. You don't and I'm telling EVERYONE - my next email will be to Watchdog and then I'm contacting the FSA as a Mumsnetter suggested.

Sometimes disputes can go in favour of the seller, however you do have the right to appeal the decision. Via the appeal button at the bottom of the closed dispute.

I had a SNAD opened against me for an Apple Computer that was old, the guy said it was yellowed, well excuse me it was 10 years old, as a seller I won the dispute.

Depending on their arguement the seller can win a SNAD, it is how you word your dispute that goes either for or against you.

Buyers are guaranteed to win a non receipt dispute but not always a SNAD dispute.

You can do a chargeback but PayPal might deem the chargeback false and still show your account as owing money to the seller.

That was the conclusion of the appeal process.

Still don't understand how the seller is not bound by the terms of their listing? This constitutes a contract with the buyer, and they simply can't decide afterwards not to comply with one of the terms which may have been the deciding factor for the buyer ( were you reassured by the fact that you could return the item if necessary? Would you have thought twice if that term wasn't included?). I would take legal advice.

You could file a claim online via moneyclaimonline for the cost of the item plus return costs plus costs of brining the action, for selling something that was proportedly old but is in fact a replica.

I am sorry about what has happenned to yuo laurie but it certainly not the general riule on ebay it is hard as a seller to win disputes, if a buyer claims non delivery unless you provided tracking and proof it was signed for you will always lose, and when in a not as described case, the buyers win a very large proportion of the time but notr always,

I both buy and sell on abay and would generally say ebay is generally more buyer friendly than seller friendly

as others have mentioned there are other legal avenues open but in that case the onus would be on you to get a report saying it was not an antique piece of jewellry and you would have to pay for that upfront

on the other hand ebay may take the view like most real life auction houses that if something has all the signs of being antique,whether hallmarks makers marks etc, you do not have a right to claim back unless a deliberate fake so if selle thought it was a genuine piece not just that style that may work in their favour.

I think you have just been unlucky with ebay on this occasion

cos Ebay`s shit!

I would have thought that if it´s incorrectly listed, any "contract" between you is voided.

Hope that the bank sorts it out for you.

Not helpful, but I would never have spent so much on a seller with such a low rating.

I have no idea why they're not bound by the terms of the listing - it's completely ridiculous that you enter into a contract where you believe they will accept returns and then they don't. I wrote all that to Paypal and they still found against me.

I have considered small claims court online but it will cost me £50 to get a jeweller to write a report which I would add on to the claim - the last time I did that almost 8 years ago I won in court and got a CCJ against her - and she moved to Canada. Obviously I didn't get my money back that time either.

I will get it back from Visa - I just want to warn people.

It means that you could buy an antique necklace and someone could send you one from Accessorize, tell Paypal it was an antique - and they could say it doesn't fall under 'not as described'.

I have followed your posts and can't believe you didn't win the appeal!

How ridiculous. I hope you get your visa chargeback. That has worked successfully for me, although not through paypal.

Just read the other thread. Wasn't it listed in the 'Antique' category but not actually described in the listing as antique? If that's the case, I wouldn't bother with small claims - you would be unlikely to win.

Sevenoften

It was listed in the Antique Jewellery category, described in the listing title as 'Rare Enamel and Silver Art Nouveau necklace' and in the description as 'Rare Enamel and silver Art Nouveau necklace with tiny pearl droplet'.

The seller also confirmed to Paypal in the case notes during the dispute that it was an 'original Art Nouveau necklace from 1895-1910'

original listing

Nowhere did it say 'in the style' of - the seller claims it IS Art Nouveau.

Yes, I see your point. Personally, I would understand 'art nouveau' to be a style, rather than a style manufactured at a particular time. That's not to say that your understanding was wrong, of course, but I can see why you haven't won. Also, you should understand that whatever the seller said during the dispute is irrelevant to the legal position as it came after the contract between you was made (although understandably it leaves you less than impressed with the seller).

This is why I don't think you would win at small claims. And I don't think your case justifies your claim that a seller can sell you something different from what is described and Paypal won't assist.

Still, the seller should have refunded, and they are, it seems, exploiting loopholes. I'm sorry you got caught out. :(

Only a business seller is legally bound to accept a return, and that is only on a Buy It Now Listing.

Private sellers do not have to accept returns, PayPal however do not consider in the distance selling regulations and only allow a SNAD to be raised for an item not as described, when you open a SNAD you have to word your dispute correctly to be able to win.

Did you raise a snad for Fake/Counterfeit because you should have then got a letter from a jeweller who would have said it is not Art Nouveau but a new piece i.e copied.

Why haven't you left a neg?

OH and you should always raise the dispute through the eBay Resolution Centre not PayPal for a SNAD.

art nouveau is a style like regency or art deco and something described as art nouveau should be from period about 1890-1910 possibly 1920 when things start to be art deco. so laurie is right it should be at least 90 years old.

however, so much of especially jewellry and furniture etc is described as art nouveau when it is either reproduction or based on the same style ideas, unfortunately many even main stream online jewellry stuff is described as period when it should be period style, now when we buy antiques on ebay which we still do as we have had some great bargains and also made some money, we take everything with very large pinch of salt and ask questions before we buy

I do feel sorry for Laurie because once we sold an edwardian brass light fitting and we described it accurately and everything saying exactly it provence etc, but seller insisted it was fake we got it back and had to refund postage we then took it to a local fine art auction to see and they confirmed it was genuine antique and sold it for us but not for as much we lost out by about £65, in that case ebay found in buyers favour when it should not have done, they know nothing about antiques or correct terminology for descriptions

unfortunately as she is business seller they would rather she earned ebay more money in fees they don't care if Laurie goes off in a huff because she is not worth much to them finanically, i think laurie was had but I think she has to hope Visa pay up because i think small claims court may not go her way

You are not able to raise through eBay once you've opened a dispute.

I haven't left a negative yet as it only got concluded today - feel free to word it for me fabby

And I think if the seller says they will accept returns then they should as it forms part of the contract.

If sellers are not forced to accept returns then people should hear that more often so I'm saying it here - you can pretend to accept returns but actually you can change your mind.

I know you cannot open an eBay dispute now but you should have they would have found in your favour as the seller has to prove it is genuine not you, with PayPal you have to prove it is not genuine. You would have won with an eBay dispute.

You need to put in the neg that the item is not genuine and is a fake item that could be bought for a fiver in the high street.

It isnt a business seller for a start.

The seller started this item off at ten quid, with a clear photo. So it would seem to me that neither the buyer or the seller know much about antique jewellery.

from reading other thread I tihnk the piece is vintage ie a 1970's or 80's piece, it was probably sold then as art nouveau, it is not necessarily fake or counterfeit, there is nothing illegal in making reproductions or things in a certain stlye , unlike fakes unfortunately OP said letter would be £50

but fabby is right SNAD is ebay not paypal

My thoughts exactly squeaky. And absolutely PMSL at some of the amateur and ill thought out advice so far on this thread. Do any of you actually know anything about how ebay works? No. Thought not. No wonder it's chock full of nightmare buyers!

No, she isn't a business seller but she still put in the listing she would accept returns.

Do you not think that it is reasonable to expect to return it?

She probably doesn't feel like accepting a return on the grounds of buyer remorse! That's a lot of money to bid on an item with a dodgy listing, shit photos and a poor description. I would have been asking a lot of questions before bidding on that.

On the previous thread about this, someone mentioned the clasp was modern. That is incorrect. Those catches were used on a lot of jewellery from that period.

What is the hallmark on the piece?

The jeweller said that IF it is a hallmark it is indecipherable - he also said that it was definitely modern.

Menopausal - Which terrible advice do you think people are giving me?

From my perspective I bought something listed in an antique category, described as Art Nouveau (not in the style of), the seller told Paypal and me that it was original Art Nouveau, and they said they would accept returns (which I thought formed part of the contract) - the very fact that I thought I could return it prompted me to buy it.

If it had been Art Nouveau I would of course have kept it - I've bought hundreds of items from Ebay with only one problem (where I got a CCJ awarded against the seller) so I consider myself a reasonably savvy buyer - certainly not a nightmare one .