Is this fair? Paying back house deposit.

[lurchersforlife]

I am getting divorced after a ten year marriage and we are working on a settlement. stbx was unfaithful and was originally guilt-ridden and saying he wanted nothing, but now that's changed, maybe because ow has dumped him and he's in the shit. We've actually been separated 2 years but only now moving to a divorce. I've stayed in the family home and he is staying with friends.

I'm the main earner and he earns very little. He was a sahd as lack of career made it a no-brainer that he would do that role and not me. He's also 9 years older then me so no career not one he have up.

We have very little in terms of assets - a car probably not worth £2k that I need to get to work. About £30k house equity and no savings. I have quite a decent pension.

I can borrow £18k to take on the mortgage on my own (only my income was taken into account for it anyway) and he wants that minus fees plus £20k when the dc leave uni. HE doesn't want any of my pension as he thinks he's too old to really benefit (early 50s now).

I think it's too much - it's more than the assets we have now but he says because his dm gave us £60k 12 years ago when we first bought a house he's being more than fair. I think that shouldn't come into it as it's not my fault that's mainly gone - he made all our financial decisions when we were together and wasn't exactly great at it. Solicitor thinks we can negotiate him down but is also worried about a judge not signing off on it as he has nothing really and won't get a mortgage.

Any thoughts? With the additional mortgage payments now and him paying nothing for the dc I feel like I'm going to be subsidising him for ever now.

Thank you for your advice and for sharing your experience, EarringsandLipstick. Yes, brutal and galling are words that definitely spring to mind. I don't know what the answer is - I totally understand why no fault divorce is a good thing but I hear of so many unfair settlements/children not being prioritised, even though they supposedly are. I just wish I hadn't got married and I absolutely never would again. I hope your divorce is settled very soon and that you happily move on with your dc without the abusive loser in your life!

Oh I hear you @lurchersforlife

I'm 10 years 🤦🏻‍♀️ separated and the divorce is dragging on for 4 or so years now - buy it's only in the last 18 months I properly decided to Sort It Out.

At times I've felt like such a fool (as I've put up with eg having to pay things like the full health insurance policy for the last 10 years [private health insurance normal in Ireland] and existing on a tiny maintenance amount) BUT I wasn't strong enough to fight before now either & would have crumbled & cried endlessly when faced with this sooner.

I've got more clinical & focused now.

So I honestly get where you are at, and how it seems so deeply unfair.

If there's anyway you can agree a settlement as you describe, I guarantee it's better than contesting in court. Good luck

(PS, despite even more delay, I hope my case will be finalised by the summer. I have had almost zero support, apart from my amazing counsellor) as divorce isn't common in Ireland still & family & friends are mostly disinterested. I've cried a lot about that too, in the past!)

It just feels like I'm being treated like some kind of cash cow and made to be responsible for his shit life choices while also being solely responsible for our dc

I actually think this comment is disgusting. It's reminiscent of the way some men speak about their SAHM ex wives. It's awful. You and he decided that he would be the SAHP. Joint decision. Is that really his shit choice? No. It's a joint choice you both made.

Additionally, you were not solely responsible for the children as you worked full time and he looked after them while you did. As such, it was a partnership.

It seems strange that you were given £60k for a deposit on your last house (which was presumably lower value than your current £160k house) but despite upgrading the kitchen and bathroom and moving to a bigger house you've somehow lost £30k plus any capital repayments. Sad that his DM wasted so much money.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

I think that's unfair.

Reading OP's posts, it sounds as if her H stepped back from work, took on the role of SAHD but to a limited extent - OP took over at 430 each day & all holidays.

Her point was that scenario would be highly unusual for a SAHM.

The point is the moral aspect is really irrelevant in law.

OP took over at 430 each day & all holidays

Why shouldn't the work out of home parent step in and do some parenting when they get home?

And if she worked full time she would have what? 4 or 5 weeks holiday out of 52? So then the SAHD did the rest (8 weeks) of the school holidays.

You keep insisting that he is not the same as a SAHM...he is in the eyes of the law. Plenty of SAHP are not fussed about careers, pensions and expect spouse to take over childcare in their free time (because both parents are entitled to time off). You read this enough on here...

It is tough but all men and women should bear in mind that whatever they settle for in marriage is whatever are agreeing to in divorce. It is really tough if one partner changes or lacks same financial outlook. Yes you do feel like the cash cow. Men will empathise

No of course, I agree. However, it's atypical of a working father to step in & do everything at 430. Maybe 7 or so. And usually the SAHM is also still doing stuff.

Also isn't OP a teacher so I guess has longer holidays than you say? (Tho I know school holidays in the UK are shorter than where I am, Ireland).

I'm not trying to speak for OP but I get the impression her H was pretty feckless, and ultimately had an affair & left.

Yes, I completely accept that ex made a contribution as sahd and it certainly wasn't nothing. BUT he had no career to step back from and had only worked ad hoc in low paid roles and occasionally made some beer money from his hobby. It just annoys me when people talk as if it's simply a case of reversing the sexes because it's not. I am a teacher and therefore able to cover all the holidays and be home by 4.30 most days. I put enormous pressure on myself to be as much a presence in their lives as their dad and therefore took over everything for the dc as soon as I walked in and then start work again once they are in bed. Ex would cook, but it was a hobby (yes, convenient, imagine if a man said that etc etc) and would get his whole evening to himself. Weekends/holidays ex would be on the periphery of everything we did. Yes, it suited me at the time, and him, but he's not some down-trodden person who sacrificed it all for the kids. And of course he found time to fit in an affair with a school mum.

I do get that that has no legal relevance but I just wish people would stop with the reversing the sexes because that's not relevant either and I kind of think it stops me thinking about the legal aspect calmly as it's so bloody annoying.

Thanks again EarringsandLipstick I can't imagine going through this for a decade - you must be a very strong person.

I agree with you OP. Sometimes it's of course relevant to ask 'would you say this in the case of a SAHM' etc. But sometimes it's not.

I hear you completely. And I also hear the frustration of it being made out to be truly analogous to a SAHM situation.

I remember family members talking about my ex's 'rights' to the DC, when I knew he had no interest in them & would only use this as a way to exert control / upset us. I used to feel so enraged that my family would go on like this!

Thank you for your good wishes - I'm perhaps strong in some ways, not in others. I couldn't face the legal stuff for years. I'm getting there but like you, it's going to feel hollow in many respects.

It’s not a case of not hearing you
to a large extent that’s not relevent

youve been together 10 years
his housing needs are near the same as yours
he is entitled to a sizeable portion , inc pension
that’s how marriage and divorce works

i get you’re angry and concerned, and bitter and you have a right to be. But you need to stay level headed and be prepared to negotiate and compromise based on what the law states

You need to be careful here OP.

For the sake of handing over £1-5k, you could end up losing a substantial chunk of your pension, and presumably a lot more in solicitors fees.

You're angry with him, and rightly so he sounds like a useless individual, but check with your solicitor and ask them honestly what the judge is likely to rule.

Financial Settlement
To know what a fair split of assets is and to reach a financial settlement both divorcing parties need to know what the assets of the marriage are, and what each asset is worth.

Full and frank disclosure of assets is a requirement.

What does full and frank financial disclosure look like?
Look at a Form E. A long document in which each party sets out their assets, income, and financial needs. You can see in it the assets that are taken into consideration upon divorce and financial settlement, for example property (the former marital home), pensions, stocks and shares etc. It also lists the documents needed that show the value of assets for example CETVs (cash equivalent transfer values of pensions - which can be requested from pension providers). Each party fills this out and sends to to the other and attaches the relevant documentation.

To find out what some assets are worth an independent expert can be used. Property can be valued by an expert - estate agents, and pensions by CETV and / or a pension on divorce expert (PODE/actuary) report and so on.

Pensions can be very valuable – equivalent or more than the value of the former martial home in some cases. Divorcing parties might hold different types of pensions (not like-for-like, so difficult to compare without an expert). Circumstances might be complex for example an age difference or pensions in payment. One party may have stayed at home to look after children.

Who gets what?
When deciding how to distribute a couple’s assets and income the court has to apply a checklist of factors set by statute. The relevant statute is section 25 of the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973. These factors will need to be applied in every case, regardless of whether you are engaged in court proceedings or negotiating your own settlement. These are often called the Section 25 factors, which the court will take into account when deciding how to distribute assets upon divorce or dissolution.

See:
images.ctfassets.net/o8luwa28k6k2/2cpp2mEMwBJWJLuzTiTruB/b5397e7459154fad8927826a2c99acdd/section-25-expert-guide.pdf

Section 25 (2)(f) gives information on contributions each party has made to the marriage and relates to the op.

The income, earning capacity, property, and other financial resource which each of the parties to the marriage has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future is taken into account. The needs of each party are considered.

First consideration is given to the welfare (while a minor) of any child of the family who has not yet attained the age of eighteen.

A mediator can help divorcing parties agree on how to split money and property, without taking sides - pensions, property, savings, investments etc.
www.gov.uk/money-property-when-relationship-ends/mediation

The first step is a a mediation information assessment meeting (MIAM) before you start mediation.

Guides on divorce and financial settlement
www.advicenow.org.uk/tags/separation-divorce-and-dissolution-civil-partnerships
www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-apply-financial-order-without-help-lawyer

Pensions on divorce
www.sharingpensions.co.uk/penaudit3.htm
www.mediateuk.co.uk/the-ultimate-guide-to-pensions-on-divorce/
www.nuffieldfoundation.org/news/new-good-practice-guide-addresses-shortfall-in-understanding-of-how-to-treat-pensions-on-divorce

Legal advice
This link gives you an indication of hourly rate for solicitors
www.gov.uk/guidance/solicitors-guideline-hourly-rates
Some organisations offer free advice from solicitors and barristers rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-advice/ On their FAQs page…”Our Legal Officers and Volunteer legal advisors are all solicitors and barristers”.
Some family solicitors offer an in initial free consultation and some a fixed fee rather than hourly.
Some barristers can be directly instructed e.g., via Clerksroom Direct

Yes, it suited me at the time, and him, but he's not some down-trodden person who sacrificed it all for the kids
This is the key bit though. It suited you for this arrangement too.

No he didn't give up a career, no he isn't downtrodden, but BOTH of you chose to get married, you knew he wasn't bringing much financially, you knew his views on pensions, and you were happy with him remaining a SAHP.

The only reason that now this arrangement is terrible is because you're splitting up and you don't believe he should have a fair share of marital assets.

This! It’s the best advice you will get on here. Factual and cuts through the emotions.

The law is written the way it is for very good reason.

You have to detach yourself from the emotional side of things and look at it objectively. You have to accept the law is what it is, and it applies all of the time, where it says it does.

Once you accept that you will see that what he’s asking for is entirely reasonable, in fact, many would say he would not be getting his fair share.