Child maintenance - trying to be fair!

[Jw1102]

Please can anyone offer advice? My ex is saying he can't afford to pay the amount of CM that the calculator suggests. I don't know how much is due to the fact he is renting a nice flat so they children have a nice second home or because he's bad at budgeting. Either way, I feel I have no choice but to let him reduce his payments because I don't want my girls to have to suffer by losing their second home which they really love. Im just not sure how to go about suggesting a fair amount? Ultimately, he'll probably say he can only afford x and I'll have to accept it but just wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation? I'm not earning loads but have been managing the last year just about despite getting next to nothing in terms of CM. Maybe I should just let him pay what he can afford if I think I can manage and take the more peaceful option? He doesn't seem to understand that he has an obligation to pay, and the fact that I work part time at the moment (one child still not school age) probably annoys him. I would look for more hours if I need to, of course, but don't want to lose that time with my child just because he can't sort himself out and budget properly, if that is the case here.

In fact he is currently on a three week holiday

OP when was the last time you and your dc went on a 3 week holiday?

He is CHOOSING to go on holiday rather than support his children.

Could you CHOOSE to go on holiday and not support them?

He has a responsibility to financially support his dc. He is choosing to pay £1k a month to rent a fancy flat, what's the average in that area?

A basic CMS calculation suggests his contribution (assuming £2k after tax) should be £340 ish. That's to support his own children - that's the basic legal minimum.

How much would that help you to fund your kid's lives OP?

If he was truly on his arse, with a bedsit and beans on toast, then yeah, I'd be thinking about coming to an arrangement outside cms. But he's clearly not, with a luxury flat and 3 week holidays. All the while playing the woe is me card to get you to agree to waive his contribution.

I would also be interested to know what his actual salary is - my ex insisted on an unofficial arrangement until he'd not made any increases for a few years, turned out he'd had a massive pay rise which he'd forgotten to mention and had been living the life of Riley for 6 years whilst still only contributing pennies to his kids.

I don’t think people are saying he shouldn’t lay you anything
i think what most of us are trying to say is that housing situation that leaves him unable to sever ties and in a precarious position imosbting his ability to pay cms is not a long term sustainable solution
its commendable both of you are looking for stability for your children but it means both of you will need to compromise to chsnge the situation. You really need to consider full time work perhaps when youngest is at school which will increase your mortgage raising ability and ability to buy him out potentially. or you agree a much shorter timescale than a 13 year mesher ( which is also likely to cause you problems then)
Again if it went to court a mesher would not be agreed while you work part time, if working full time allowed for an alternative.

have you had any legal advise at all yet on a settlement ? It’s possible he would not get 50% so this could also be s negotiation

in short term perhaps try to come to an arrangement between you on what cms he pays but I think you both need to have a rethink about your current agreements as they are not suitable long term imo

A 3 week holiday?

And skint.

Ok.

I'm currently arranging to go up to four days to mitigate for our mortgage increase next year. Even FT I simply wouldn't be able to take the mortgage on despite the fact I can make the payments - the lender wouldn't agree to it based on their calculations, let alone borrow more to release equity to my ex. Ive been up all night looking at online calculators and it just doesn't seem possible for me to be allowed to take the house on, so would happily do that if it was possible. Will be seeking legal/mortgage advice at some point, just came on here to see how anyone else had decided what was fair for an ex to pay for CM. Got more than I bargained for  we need to renew our mortgage deal soon so think we'll go for a two year deal then after that when both the kids are in school and we've had time to save for legal costs etc look at our options then.

@Fuuuuuckit in fairness I imagine his mum paid for flights - he is not British and hasn't been home for 6 years. But social media tells me he's done a lot of eating/drinking/socialising that he must have paid for himself. But I think that's fair enough, he needs to be able to live his life and he deserves a break as much as anyone. But no, I've not been on a hol for years and will not be going in one for the foreseeable!

To be fair to OP and her daughters....

£1000 is a lot of spare money to have left AFTER bills and rent! He could even house share too it's not ideal but if you live an expensive place it's not uncommon either.

I don't have £1000 spare after my rent and bills. So suggest he house shares to save money it wouldn't be forever!

Op stated rent is 1000 pr month
not rent and all bills is 1000
if all his living expenses are 1000 leaving him with 1000 ‘spare’ that would be different leading to different answers

he’ll have utilities, phone, car, insurance, petrol, food, clothes, and cms to pay out too

I'm not sure housesharing is fair - I wouldn't want my children staying over with a group of people I didn't know, would you? Besides the housemates themselves might not want children staying over regularly, the terms of the lease might not allow it, or the place might not be child friendly. I'd rather my children were staying somewhere safe when they weren't with me.

@OneForTheRoadThen sorry I should of added I agree with you. Overnights would have to stop in a house share. The situation is bleak though, I'm just suggesting to OP as a last resort and I was trying to think long term it would generate extra income. It seems a shame to waste £1000 in rent. Despite OP saying its spacious her girls will need privacy and their own beds as girls staying with their dad..... what is your suggestion to OP?

Because whilst selling the house unless OP has enough money to buy another I don't see the point in that either. Then what would she do pay sky high private rent?

Sorry I've misread OP. He has no cms to pay currently.

£1000 though in rent is too much. I still think a house share would be better. You live where you can afford and I suspect there's cheaper options. What would you rather if you wasn't getting CMS.

I think it's laughable that OP is expected to up her hours, but who's footing the childcare bill because 1 child isn't even at school yet.

Or is that really his salary? Because you have a point about his bills on top! I didn't realise earlier apologies.

If the hill to die on for you both is for your daughters to spend most of their time in the bigger house, maybe you and your exDH can swap? He takes the house and primary custody and you get a small flat. You said he works evening/nights, so it’d depend on him being able to afford a uni student to just be in the home in case of emergencies.

@Closuretime

I'm guessing you might not be up to speed with the current rental market?

My STBEXH is trying to find somewhere to rent on his own - you don't get much change from £800-£1000 per month anywhere around here and that's for a one bed.

You can't expect him to house share - it's not a reasonable, practical or safe environment to allow him to see the children in. My ex is currently in a house share. I don't allow the children to visit there.

I think it's pretty "laughable" that the OP expects not to work full time. It's a luxury not a choice especially when you are going through a divorce and effectively withholding his rightful share of his assets. I don't particularly like my ex right now but I'm not going to punish him further by forcing him into house shares at his age - we aren't exactly in our 20s! Whilst i sit in the family home and refuse to do everything I can to give him what he is due and I can imagine the court would take a dim view of it too

@isthistheendtakeabreath I am upto speed about the rental market and OP stated this too and did say its pricey. What did you do in your circumstances?

Because for OP to sell the house means BOTH will be paying £1000. OP will feel it more as she has the kids the most and EX pays no CMS. OP did mention increasing her hours to be fair.

Why is your ex not living in a one bed for £1000 also then?! So he can see his kids?

Having read your update I realize that so misunderstood your OP and thought that you helped decide on the £1000pm flat.
If he's to pay you CM, he needs to find accommodation that is more like £650/700. That would be a flat share or house share here which means he couldn't have the kids overnight. (I know his family live abroad from your updates)

Or he could get a mortgage once they've sold the house and he has his share of the equity and no other debt? And do 50:50 so no maintenance to pay.

@OverCCCs That's not possible - he works long shifts from lunch til midnight so he's never been able to be primary carer. And even if he somehow could, how would that help? Our roles would just be reversed and then I'd be in the situation that everyone seems to think is so awful and unfair?

I only work PT because I can afford to for now and we had never wanted the girls to be in FT nursery. I don't know why everyone seems to think I'm determined to rip him off. We were both under the impression that CM was something that should be paid regardless of my income or situation and we were both happy with our arrangement. Thanks for all the comments but now that suggestions are turning to my children being brought up part time in houseshares I think it's time to call it a day on this thread. Thank you to those of you who have offered helpful advice and insight.

Good luck OP. I think it's a good thing that currently you and your ex are on the same page about this and both want what's best for the children.

Definitely work on improving your own financial position / earnings though, because at some point you'll need to divorce and separate your assets and I'm sure that'll be well before the kids are 18.

The child maintenance system is an arbitrary mess with some NRPs paying too little, others paying too much, avoidance not being particularly hard and the status quo triggering other litigation such as fights over child custody in order to pay less or to receive more. The automatic knee jerk response on Mumsnet is often that any man who pays less than the full amount on their gross salary (no naughty pension reductions) is worse than Hitler, but presumably its borne of ignorance of how badly the system operates.

For example, is it really fair that a parent on £30k who refuses to ever see their two children pays only £170 more a month than a parent who has their children for 3 nights a week and half of the school holidays? And is it really sufficient for someone on £150k a year who has their children two days a week to pay only £1,166? In the former there is not much a court can do about it, but in the latter it's not uncommon to see spousal maintenance that ceases to be substantive when children are 11 or even 18, presumably to top things up (there would probably be a lot less litigation if higher income parents just had to pay more child maintenance that had a definite end date).

I think the OP is being very fair and also more realistic in seeking an amicable solution. One way to give both parties certainty would be to agree a series of Christmas Orders where an amount of child maintenance is agreed year on year. Perhaps the fairest calculation would be to:

Calculate CM based on no days with payer.

Work out the time difference the DCs are with payer and receiver (e.g. 4 days vs 3 days = 1 day)

Pay CM for the difference (e.g. full CM / 7 * days difference)