What is seen as fair

[Nitotoo]

Just that really what is deemed fair in the eyes of a judge. XH and I are heading to court soon for FDR he had previously made me an offer which he deemed fair but my solicitor said starting point of 50%.

To give brief details met in 2014 after my first marriage ended and I had been made redundant. My daughter from my first marriage and I were living in rented accommodation and in receipt of full benefits. XH was in the process of buying a home to renovate and get on the housing ladder. I stayed in rental accommodation. I fell pregnant with our DS in 2015 and XH then sold his first property and bought a family home for us all to live in in his name. We moved in in Jan 2016. I was still not working due to having a baby and had struggled to find anything since being made redundant. We married in 2017 after XH took a loan to fund a wedding and a new car for me. This loan is like the house in his name only. I was able to find a part time job around this time around XH working commitments working 16 to 20 hours a week to bring in a small income. In 2018 we seperated and I left with the children to private rented accommodation with benefit top up from UC. XH stayed in his house.

Were struggling to reach an agreement as he offered 16k I keep the car and have no liability to the loan. My solicitor said 50 50 which is more like 80k with the equity and current house prices.

XH has moved his new partner into this house. Due to financial disclosure they both have a healthy salary and seem to have a good life whilst me and the children have been served section 21 and forced to move and struggle on UC as I can only work 24hrs a week when children are in school. I don't feel very secure in rented accommodation and feel I should have stayed in the house.

Would I be likely to gain an order to get back in the house? Would I be likely to get 50% I realise at a 14 month marriage and whole cohabiting relationship of 34 months it could be deemed a short marriage but there is a huge difference in our circumstances which cannot be seen as fair. If I'm forced to work more hours who picks up the childcare bills, XH? I could possibly work more hours but I doubt I could get a mortgage more than enough to buy a place I would need. My solicitor is saying to hold out for the FDR and my XH is saying the original offer he made is now off the table. My mum could potentially gift me a 6 figure sum towards a house but I would need at least 50% of the equity to top this up to what is needed. Would I then get spousal maintenance to top up the loss of UC to live off he is quite a high earner on about 70k a year (I already get cms payments however the min cms amount) would I really be liable for half of the loan that XH took in his name only? His claiming I should be however I would think he has nearly paid this off by now.

You are never liable for a loan in someone else’s name (unless you signed as guarantor). I’d listen to solicitor and go for 50:50 as starting point. The 16K offer is ridiculous. There is the house equity as a starting point plus any pensions and savings. Spousal maintenance is extremely unlikely on that salary.

@Scottishflower65 There is no savings on either side and my solicitor has already said no to pension sharing so that is off the table.

XH is going by the fact it's his house solely and always was he wants his deposit back also. I didn't thibk it mattered I don't own it we were together for 34 months and married for 14months out of that so surely its joint now?

I am not an expert, I’m only going by what I read on other MN posts.
You won’t get either the house nor spousal support after such a short marriage.
You’ll be entitled to some equity and it might start at 50/50 and he will have to pay child support (which I hope he has been doing since the split).
But I might be wrong.

He will have to pay maintenance for his child.

When you say there is more than 80k equity in the house, are you including the deposit? Because you will not be entitled to that as it will be deemed an asset that he owned prior to your marriage.

Did you contribute to the running costs of the house? If you did, this will be in your favour.

Good luck OP

@FelicityPike we have a cms arrangement for that he pays it yes but literally only what the cms say. I have around 1000 a month in cms payments from my first XH and this one so that's all sorted.

@Pootlepoodle it's been said that he wants his deposit back but my solicitor said I had to agree to this firstly. He would be likely to get that back then? That makes the equity around 140k in total but 70k each. I'm not sure about the loan though would it be likely I'd have to pay thay back? He bought the house before we was married or cohabiting together is that not the same case in which why would he get his deposit back when I have a claim to the house?

My solicitor also said although my daughter is my first husbands biological child and she still sees her father my second XH will now be responsible to home her too as she is as equally a child of the marriage as our DS.

@Pootlepoodle not really we had some money issues and XH said it would be beneficial for me to work for extra bits and bobs so my money would go into a joint account but I would then use that for beauty appointments, clothes and little bit and bobs instead of his money so it contributed in that I was providing for myself a little rather than using 'his' income.

You are not liable for the loan in the eyes of the lenders. But If the outstanding debt is linked to the marriage then it will offset the value any assets to reach a net value that can be split. As it was used for your wedding it is almost certainly a marital liability and will be factored into the split of net assets.

For example
If the equity is £100k and the debt is £30k. Then you have a net pot of £70k to split. Giving you each £35k net from the marriage.

Since you have been living in rented accommodation for some time you would have a hard job to convince anyone you need to move back into the house.

The £16k might be fair or not. You need to provide details of the equity in the house. But given it was such a short marriage, he can argue that his personal assets from before the marriage should be excluded. In other words you may only entitled to capital growth accrued within the marriage.

The marriage will be deemed short. It’s far less than 5 years.

The income disparity did not arise from the marriage.

When deciding what you want to do remember

• UC is on top of CMS but it is not paid on top of not spousal. If you receive spousal maintenance your UC will be reduced.

• You can receive UC help for rent but not a mortgage.

• any capital or savings you have over £16k will reduce your UC.

Are you sure that the equity in the house grew by £140k after it was purchased. Even allowing for whole period of the marriage that is a lot.

But he is likely to only offer the growth in equity during the marriage of 34 months. In other words a share of the price increase between 2016 and 2018 plus any capital repayment. He will argue the deposit isn’t a marital asset and that any growth after you split isn’t a marital asset.

You need to get your solicitor to advise on how likely he will success with this in court.

You need to get your solicitor to advise on how likely he will success with this in court.

This 100%

Whilst it sounds as though your solicitor is fighting a tough game on your behalf, be careful of spiralling costs in legal fees. It may be worth seeking a second opinion to be absolutely sure whether you are likely to win this one.

Legally I’d say as it’s a short marriage you should take out what you put in. I don’t know how “short” is defined. But yes, proper legal advice

Morally, you want half the equity in a house bought with his money when you were married a year? You’re muttering about spousal maintenance and that your ex should be responsible for housing your child that isn’t his? Really?

@BillMasen

Legally I’d say as it’s a short marriage you should take out what you put in. I don’t know how “short” is defined. But yes, proper legal advice

Morally, you want half the equity in a house bought with his money when you were married a year? You’re muttering about spousal maintenance and that your ex should be responsible for housing your child that isn’t his? Really?

Well, maybe morally she can't but legally her other child is a "child of the family."

Short marriage is a factor too though. However, solicitor seems to think there is a case here so....

@LemonTT the house has increased in value 140k from the day he bought to todays value but he obviously put a deposit down firstly which equals it back out to 140k equity. He lived in the house solely by himself for 2 months before me and the children moved in.

XH said the 16k was fair because I could keep all my benefits still and have a car so basically I would walk away 16k and a car better off and no debt. Obviously anything over the 16k comes off my benefit/loose it completely which is why my solicitor said about applying for spousal to 'bridge the gap' and to ensure the children and I can continue to live. I won't be able to get a large enough mortgage to buy and only can if my mother gifts me a large sum of money and I get a large settlement from this but I would need the full 50%.

@Pootlepoodle yes I might get alternate advice my family are paying my legal fees and currently have cost around 8k as been ongoing since 2019 now.

@BillMasen my solicitor told me my daughter will be classed as a child of the marriage as my XH took her on and housed her so she is now part of the 'needs' case he is building.

I'm just starting to worry that an FDR will find in his favour and I'll get the original 16k he offered.

You will get more than £16k. But less than £80k.

@BillMasen

Legally I’d say as it’s a short marriage you should take out what you put in. I don’t know how “short” is defined. But yes, proper legal advice

Morally, you want half the equity in a house bought with his money when you were married a year? You’re muttering about spousal maintenance and that your ex should be responsible for housing your child that isn’t his? Really?

Kind of think this too to be honest.

I understand that you want as much as you can get legally, but surely you must have a feeling yourself what is actually fair to him. The above feels like a lot to ask.

In a needs based case where children are involved as yours is, there can be significant departure from basic sharing principles. I would think if you can prove that you can obtain secure housing for yourself and the children if you get a 50% share of the house equity then you have a very good chance of being awarded that.

If the debt is paid off then its irrelevant, and the car is only worth what you could sell it for today (get an offer for we buy any car).

The judge will look at is what is in the pot today and how to ensure you are all housed and able to pay your bills with as minimal recourse to the public purse as possible.

Evidence of the gift offer from your parents might help as well as the cost of houses where you are looking, to show that with that settlement you can buy. UC wont be effected by a settlement lump sum so long as you use it to buy within 6 months. And until the settlement is concluded all assets are still on the table, so it is really in his interest to settle asap if he's earning well and paying the mortgage as that is all adding to the pot.

If after £8k and 3 years, you haven’t reached an agreement over the split then you need a rethink.

Because if you aren’t even in court yet it’s going to cost an awful lot more.

There is always a case to argue. But one side will always lose. Which is why you need to establish exactly how likely you would be to get £80k in these circumstances.

Are you getting child maintenance for your dd from her biological father?

Also, it does sound as though you may want to rethink your solicitor as 8k is a big bill considering it’s not even gone to courts yet.

Your solicitor said your first child who you receive CMS and sees her dad will also have a right to be housed by your soon to be exh? After 36 months of living together?

So both men will be paying towards housing her? Not sure that's right. You won't get to keep the house, because you can't afford it. 2 men won't pay CMS for the same child, surely?

IMO you sound a little greedy.

When you met the manager you & your other child were living in rented accommodation and you were living off benefits.

Your EH sold a property and purchased a new one for you and your child from a previous relationship to live in.

You married in 2017. He paid for the wedding & purchased you a car. Did you contribute anything? In 2018 you separated.

Why do you think you are entitled to 50% equity in the house, when you put nothing into it and were married a year before you separated?

You seem to think because your EH (of a year) and his new partner have ‘a healthy salary and seem to have a good life whilst me and the children have been served section 21 and forced to move and struggle’ you are entitled to be paid for by someone else’s hard work.

I doubt you would be awarded an order to get back into what is effectively his house 4 years after you left & separated.

Not a chance in hell you will get spousal maintenance for a 14 month marriage. When you met him you were on benefits and now 4 years after separating you want SM because he has a better lifestyle than you. From what you have written your youngest child is 6/7 (?) - there’s no reason you can’t get a job and start supporting yourself.

Am presuming you get CM for your first child and get CM for the 2nd child?

She gets 1000 a month cms from her first child’s father

Sorry re-read it
That’s the total from both for both children

No-one is disputing the cms and that both fathers should pay

The rest of it looks really grabby to me. I also think your solicitor can see that and is keeping you sweet with what you might get. Hence why you’re 8k down in fees already

I agree with this ^^

It seems to be a mixed bag of opinions I guess it's a gamble I will have to think about taking.

@LemonTT I did change solicitors will added to the length of time but it's basically he won't raise his offer and my solicitor feels its unfair. As much as I have spent that much he would have as well I thought he would get fed up of fighting and raise his offer and I guess he thinks my parents will get sick of funding and I will accept his. FDR is scheduled for next month so is looming I was just having a panic as I've read some contradictory things.

@Pootlepoodle and @AlDanvars yes I get cms from my first husband for my dd and he sees her regularly. My soon to be ex husband has not seen my dd since I left in 2018 and only pays maintenance for our ds and has contact with our ds only. I was as surprised as you too but my solicitor said she is a child of the marriage and always refers in all correspondence to 'the children of the marriage' it has never been 'child' so they are continuing with this stance. There were no assets in my first marriage we rented and that's where we stayed it's my soon to be ex who provided my dd as well as myself and our ds with the security of a mortgaged property. My first husband pays cms only.

The need is that I live in an unsecured rental property and reliant on UC with 2 children whilst XH lives with security of a mortgaged property so I have come out of it worse off and not to the same standard as when in the marriage. His and his partners earning capacity far outweighs mine so it wouldn't take them long to get back to the same position and could quite easy get a bigger mortgage with a smaller deposit.

Like everything the outcome will be a chance everyone has to take it seems. Never any hard and fast rules with this stuff. I'll try to get a second opinion and take it from there. Thanks everyone.

I get what people are saying about the morals of this, but the man is a bit of an arse if he's happy to have a far, far higher living standard than his own child.
I don't think you'll get 50% OP, maybe lower your sights a bit as far as your next home is concerned and think about what you yourself can afford as opposed to getting the most money out of your ex and your mum. I know that sounds nasty, but there's no point in living in a big house if you can't afford to run it.

I have around 1000 a month in cms payments from my first XH and this one so that's all sorted.

Op can you confirm you get 1k per month for just your first child?

Just because you solicitor refers to them as that, doesn't mean both children will be viewed as that when it comes to the settlement.

Essentially you want your soon to be exh to cms for his own child (quite rightly) and a child that's not his, who he knew a maximum of 36 months......while that child's Dad is seeing them and paying for them as well?

I have to be honest, I would be surprised if that was accepted. I would also be surprised if you ended up with 50:50
But would expect more than 16k.

Can't believe how much you have spent. And, honestly, doesn't sound like you have had great advice. You will end up walking away from this with barely anything, once fees are paid.

You really need to get yourself into full time work and secure your own finances.