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Divorce/separation

Here you'll find divorce help and support from other Mners. For legal advice, you may find Advice Now guides useful.

Worst decision a woman could make

630 replies

Notbeingrobbed · 18/09/2018 11:16

As a working mother with two children to support, my divorce has made me see that getting married was the worst financial decision I ever made.

I have been the higher earner so will lose a big chunk of the money that I have made throughout my life. I also have the kids to support (happy to).

My ex will get a big payout having benefitted from my income as well as his own for years.

Why would any modern woman marry? Oh, because we are all influenced by society (and hormones) to think it’s a good thing.

People say I am arguing like a man. But the law was surely designed to protect a stay-at-home mother with children from a husband who leaves. Not to protect a layabout-at-home father?

OP posts:
Notbeingrobbed · 03/10/2018 14:05

Shame you didn’t go to CMS. He should have paid towards his own kids. Whatever happened to parents taking responsibility for their children? Or just common decency?

OP posts:
MissedTheBoatAgain · 03/10/2018 15:10

Xenia

Sounds like you let him off big time. Child Maintenance is payable by NRP regardless of what RP earns. If you earn 10x more than ex did you end up paying him Spousal Maintenance?

Xenia · 03/10/2018 21:58

x% of very little is very little. When he got almost £1m from me it just wasn't worth pursuing once the year was up tiny amounts of child maintenance when part of what I bought for £1m was not having to deal with him ever again.

The reason he got more than 50% was because we commuted/bought out his maintenance for life claims through the large lump sum and that included my obligation to pay the 5x school fees too whereas in some divorces if the lower earner gets a lot of money they are then expected to pay at least some of the school fees or childcare costs out of that. He was also in full time work and had made no career sacrifice so that was another reason the clean break could be achieved with the lump sum whereas someone who will never work again as they stopped 20 years ago would not have been in the same position.

Notbeingrobbed · 03/10/2018 22:18

@Xenia so you were left with all the costs and he went off with a fortune. This is scandalous. If he was working how could he have claimed for maintenance?

Just thinking about it all again and it really feels a total infringement of my human rights that I could not save a penny for my future without my ex having a claim on it! And the only way to cut the link is to shell out for legal fees. Sickening.

OP posts:
MissedTheBoatAgain · 03/10/2018 22:24

Xenia

So the lump sum was paid in lieu of SM. Sounds okay.

Is he working now? If so he should be able to help with university costs.

Guess what he does with the capital settlement is his own choosing.

Notbeingrobbed · 03/10/2018 22:32

@MissedTheBoatAgain yes but judging by his track record it doesn’t look likely that Xenia’s ex would ever pay a penny towards his offspring. At least they have a supportive mum.

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MissedTheBoatAgain · 04/10/2018 00:48

To NotBeingRobbed

Settlements are based on Needs as opposed to who earned and paid for things. Assets accrued during the Marriage are considered Joint.
It is a fact that you must accept. Prenups are not recognized in UK apparently. Although some might argue they should be?

Can't remember which Judge made the ruling, but I seem to remember there was a ruling made that stated there was no distinction between Breadwinner and Homemaker. Both roles were deemed to be important to the family.

In the Short Term the weaker earner has the greater needs until they can achieve independence. Particularly so if they are the Parent With Care. So asset split may favour the weaker earner.

In my Grandparents generation being the Wife was a huge task as families much larger then. My father is one of 7. Add the 2 parents made a total of 9 in the household. A lot to cook, clean and shop for.

No dishwashers in those days and large American Style Freezers that can store large amounts of food and no delivery to the door services either.

Taking that into account it would have been unfair in a Divorce to say to Ex Wife "you did not pay for anything so you must now leave with nothing". How is she meant to survive?

Times have changed and I would say settlements have taken into account those changes. Hence Joint Lives Spousal Maintenance not as common as before.

Johnnyfinland · 04/10/2018 01:41

That’s the problem, it should be based on who paid for what first, and needs second. Obviously children need to be provided for but spousal maintenance should be abolished completely. People should absolutely be expected to support themselves.

MissedTheBoatAgain · 04/10/2018 03:04

That’s the problem, it should be based on who paid for what first, and needs second

Think you have just re-written Family Law? So the high earner who paid for everything keeps everything and the weaker partner who needs a roof over their heads, something to eat and clothes to wear has to whistle or beg off the State at Tax Payers expense?

Obviously children need to be provided for

Only part of post that has any Logic

spousal maintenance should be abolished completely

Another re-write of Family Law.

People should absolutely be expected to support themselves

Courts do expect people to try and support themselves and if a Clean Break is possible courts are obliged to make that decision. In a Clean Break there would be no Spousal Maintenance and the only commitment would be Child Maintenance, if any.

Joint Lives Spousal Maintenance is rare and would require exceptional circumstances such as; one partner has a disability or illness that prevents them from working. The marriage was long and one partner gave up a lucrative career to support the other. Many other factors would also be taken into account.

Trend seems to be that Spousal Maintenance, if deemed applicable, is awarded for a period the Courts consider sufficient for the financially weaker partner to achieve independence and hence no longer NEED Spousal Maintenance.

In my case SM is payable till child is 14 as by then safe enough for child to get themselves to and from school and be at home alone. This then enables his Mother to increase her hours from part time 16 per week to full time 40 per week. Even on minimum wage her increase in net monthly income would a lot more than the monthly SM she currently receives.

Notbeingrobbed · 04/10/2018 05:19

@MissedTheBoatAgain but Xenia’s ex had an income and she had the children 100% of the time. He surely didn’t “need” £1million to house only himself?

My ex also has an income and I am the resident parent. I am not saying he won’t get a settlement - but I don’t see why I can’t take out a share according to contribution. Except for the rulings of out-of-touch courts.

And to be gender specific, I am left no more in control of my own finances than my grandmother who was banned from working when married.

As for the “wife work” (a debatable idea) I am the one who has done more of it!

I also saved to protect myself and my children against adversity. Now I will lost half of that fund intended for either uni or redundancy, whichever hits me first.

OP posts:
Everincreasingfrequency · 04/10/2018 07:10

Is it because a 'who paid for what (whether in paid work or contribution to the household)?' approach would just be too difficult and complicated for the court to adjudicate on, that we have the current system?

Identifying who brought the money in is simple enough I suppose, but if you're attaching value to unpaid work at all (I think all posters agree that some value should be attached - views seem to vary as to how much) the court would have to examine both side's case in detail (higher earner says lower earner did nothing at all but just sat around on the nintendo; lower earner says s/he did all the childcare out of school, and masses of housework). It would be very time consuming and quite often very difficult to discern the real position.

It is an interesting question really, about what we want the purpose of marriage to be? If it had no financial consequences, and everyone just kept their own money on divorce, would marriage have a function at all? (Of course the dc still have to be provided for, but cohabitees have to support their dc anyway - in theory at least.)

Notbeingrobbed · 04/10/2018 07:43

If the purpose of marriage is to look after each other and the children in sickness and health etc...then fine when married. But I no longer want to stay married. I want to take what’s mine and exit this arrangement without having to pay this man more than his share. We both had paid work and the difference is income is easily itemised. All the rest - childcare, housework, was just the stuff any parent has to do. As we both have incomes so the monetary value of that could be discounted.

If one of us had entirely sacrificed their career then maybe a different formula could be used? Personally, I wouldn’t ever recommend an able-bodied person doing that as other halves can seldom be relied upon.

What I have proposed about working couples seems to me (at least) entirely logical. He earned xx%, take that, she earned yy%, that that. Yet instead the law is allowing spouses to walk away with a hefty lump sum simply for having been married.

From my perspective it appears the purpose of marriage these days is legalised theft.

OP posts:
MissedTheBoatAgain · 04/10/2018 07:43

He surely didn’t “need” £1million to house only himself?

Needs can be generously interpreted if there is sufficient assets and cash available. Take a look at some the high profile Divorces involving Movie Stars, Sports Stars and Wealthy Business people. Sometimes the settlements are measured in the 10's or even 100's of millions. In extreme cases settlements have been in the Billions.
Highest divorce settlement so far I think is US$2.5 Billion.

Of course nobody actually NEEDS that scale of money to get by, but if there is sufficient wealth to go around and both Parties are considered to be still well off afterwards Judges will make such awards. Let's be honest whether you have 100 Million of 50 Million in the bank it's all the same in practical terms. You will have security and be able to do whatever you wish for remainder of your Life. So where is the grief?

according to contribution

Contribution in what terms? Earning Power, looking after the house, looking after children, shopping, cleaning, cooking.......? There is probably no end to the list of things that can be considered as contribution.

intended for either uni or redundancy, whichever hits me first

Most people by time they have reached University will be 18 and no longer considered as dependent children. Student Loans were introduced to eliminate the scenario that only children from well off families could attend University. Maintenance grants are available too. When my Stepdaughter attended University she had friends whose parents could not afford to provide additional support, but they managed to get through the 4 year course and pass.

Redundancy can happen to anyone. Ex partners included.

Now I will lost half of that fund

Thought your settlement was not yet complete?

Everincreasingfrequency · 04/10/2018 07:55

"If the purpose of marriage is to look after each other and the children in sickness and health etc...then fine when married."

The interesting thing is that you don't need to get married to do that - I suppose it's a public commitment which people find valuable, but there's no real need for that to be a 'legal' transaction.

If the outcome on divorce were that you just take what you each take what you earned and earn (and if you're too ill/old to work the state steps in rather than the ex spouse), then marriage as a legal transaction wouldn't really be adding anything to the position on cohabitation. What would the point of it be, I wonder?

Is the logical implication of that that marriage would die out, or would the 'public commitment' part of it ensure its survival?

Notbeingrobbed · 04/10/2018 08:05

It’s the super-rich who are screwing everyone else with their ridiculous settlements. And they have the money to go to court.

Xenia said she had to get a £1m mortgage to house herself and her children while her husband walked off with a lump sum. That is not in any way fair.

I may also need another mortgage to house myself and my children depending on settlement while he may well live mortgage free.

I totally disagree about the uni costs. Students can borrow their fees but cannot actually borrow enough to cover their living costs. So in reality it’s only those supported by parents who can afford to go. Otherwise a student has to have lived independently from their parents for three years before they can claim a bursary.

OP posts:
JugglingaBoxofFrogs · 04/10/2018 08:05

Most people by time they have reached University will be 18 and no longer considered as dependent children. Student Loans were introduced to eliminate the scenario that only children from well off families could attend University. Maintenance grants are available too

They are now called Maintenance Loans and are added to the student debt. So, given that my 18 year old, who has just started Uni, is no longer considered a dependant child, if I am forced to sell my house she will have to find somewhere else to live and borrow money to pay her rent. Here's my problem:

"DD, I know you are my child and I really want to help you, but we are getting divorced so that's going to add another £30,000 to your debt because you have to find somewhere else to live. Off you go then...."

It really upsets me to keep reading that, apparently, 18 year old uni students, even if they still live at home, are not relevant in divorce settlements.

I am her Mother. She is very relevant to me!

Notbeingrobbed · 04/10/2018 08:10

I don’t think I’ll ever stop kicking myself for having entered into this harmful contract called marriage. I will spread the word to all that it is a hugely damaging arrangement. So, yes, I hope it dies out and I wish I had never gone along with the idea that the “public commitment” was a good thing!

I can’t think of any other circumstance under which another person is simply able to legally fleece another.

OP posts:
Notbeingrobbed · 04/10/2018 08:16

@JugglingABoxOfFrogs Yes, exactly. My 18-year-old child will still be my child and I will house her and help her attend university. This is my most solemn commitment. More solemn than any marriage vow.

In fact both my children are welcome to stay living in my family home until they are able to pay their own way. I will do all I can to ensure that. It’s what families do. Many young people do not move out until well into their 20s.

I do not wish them to be burdened with massive debts so their father can live it up and pay nothing towards them.

He doesn’t see it the same way at all.

OP posts:
JugglingaBoxofFrogs · 04/10/2018 08:22

"My 18-year-old child will still be my child and I will house her and help her attend university. This is my most solemn commitment. More solemn than any marriage vow.

In fact both my children are welcome to stay living in my family home until they are able to pay their own way. I will do all I can to ensure that. It’s what families do. Many young people do not move out until well into their 20s.

I do not wish them to be burdened with massive debts so their father can live it up and pay nothing towards them."

I take exactly the same view.

Notbeingrobbed · 04/10/2018 08:23

@JugglingaBoxOfFrogs thank you.

OP posts:
greenberet · 04/10/2018 08:29

Notbeingrobbed - you are starting to get the picture it is not marriage as such that is legalised theft but the law itself and the people who work in this profession that steal from you legally.

A lot of what you say makes sense to some degree you have a distorted value to SAHP but I think this is tainted by the value you attribute to your DH and that your own mother had to work as a single parent.

Are you using lawyers you have not said but I assume you are from the strength of your feeling and that you have been told something you do not like. Incidentally if this is the case you are able to change lawyers - a different lawyer may share your view but this is no guarantee you will get this outcome in court. Infact I don’t think anyone can predict what outcome you get - the whole process is open to manipulation - if you are lucky you may get something that is deemed fair.

On the face of things I believe I am a case for joint lives spousal and fit the criteria that has been mentioned on here - although some still seem to hold the view that depression is a pseudo illness.

My solicitors told me this from the start and from the research I did this seemed to fit. My first barrister completely dismissed spousal from his advice - at this point I was still pretty traumatised from the split and as I had been told I was def a case numerous times I found this difficult to listen to. He was male he was young I felt he had no idea about my life circumstances and found him pretty arrogant. I chose not to work with him - based on my settlement maybe he was more intouch with what some seem to be saying in that spousal is now given for a couple of years.

My judge for final hearing was also pretty newly appointed! 8 months My case is complicated and I believe she was under pressure from her own directions - I don’t know if anyone knows this on here maybe a legal question but I’m sure the courts must have some targets linked to adjournment of cases etc / how many hours allocated to a case/ does anyone know how judges get paid by the case by the hour or is it just set salary regardless.

There was a company involved and my x manipulated the value of this - she would have needed to be a qualified accountant to get to the bottom of the distortion my x went to and as she wasn’t relied on the info my x and his barrister prepared especially for her - it was above her ability I believe but she’s not going to admit this - I was a LIP in an emotional state and had no chance to defend myself.

What I am trying to say is I get the strength of feeling about how unfair you feel it all is and that maybe so. But in choosing to fight the system (courts) its a gamble and how far are you prepared to go will be able to go if you do not get your desired or what you feel is a fair outcome. If you are using solicitors how confident do you feel in them - it maybe that you need to change solicitors - they may still not achieve what you think is fair but at least you may feel as though someone shares your view.

I do not believe your beef is really with SAHP I believe your own mother gave you a strong work ethic and that this is something you value however you DH does not have the same values and has obviously worn you down to a point where you no longer feel he contributes any value to your marriage - I am interested in what you say about what do we tell our daughters though

unclemontyscrumpets · 04/10/2018 08:36

Divorce law has evolved to protect women (but really the state from having to protect women) from men who marry them, have them raise their children while they earn the money, and then leave them with nothing. In a world where this is not the typical nor the desired situation, it simply does not fit.

Notbeingrobbed · 04/10/2018 08:43

@greenberet my mother did work throughout her life but was not a single parent. My parents were happily married and had a good partnership and happily for them never came close to splitting up. They both worked.

There are so many people here it’s hard to remember who said what!

I hope we get a settlement without going to court. I am prepared to make a reasonable settlement but my ex seems to believe he is entitled to a whole lot more. He has mentioned a sum way beyond what we even have!

I hope we do not get to the stage of using barristers. As it is my solicitor costs are high and it’s hard to pay them and support my children.

OP posts:
Xenia · 04/10/2018 08:46

Thank you for some very good and interesting comments from everyone. Divorce is awful for everyone on all sides and mine was a over 10 years ago now so not really something I often think about and certainly does not upset now but those in the thick of it can find it very unfair.

One problem is there is one law trying to deal with so many different situations and so many different family finances. in many couples you ahve one man on about £30k and wife has not worked for 10 years and small children and one house with no assets other than say 5% of equity in the £200k house. That is fairly common situation but not really what we are talking about here. I think most people would agree the non earner's services provided unless she or he's been sitting around drunk all day and the working spouse gets home to 5 hours of childcare and house cleaning, are probably worth about that £30k salary and the children should stay in their home with the other spouse paying some maintenance for spouse and child.

In cases like mine I earned 10x he did but we both worked full time with no career sacrifice on either side, it just happens he's a teacher and I'm a lawyer. In those cases it is hard to be fair under the law. I don't agree with the principle that better off couples after they part have an entitlement to the same standard of living. Eg Paul McCartney had to give his previous wife a lum sum that would generate £700,000 a year as that sum was regarded as what she needed to live to the same standard (plus he had to fund a full time nanny for the child). That is the bit I think is unfair. Just because you got used to expensive ski holidays, hair cuts and all the rest why should you continue to be entitled to those? Before White v White the higher erarner just had to buy a modest house and provide a reasonable income for the ex, not these 50% sharing and not having to make sure they were kept to the same standard.

I was asked " If he was working how could he have claimed for maintenance? " That's the interesting point here where you both work full time but one earns a lot more. The lower earner still gets the higher earner. I know one man who had to pay £60k a year to his ex although I am not sure how long he had to do that (certainly it stops at remarriage or cohabitation but that's easy enough to avoid unless you are one of those who moves from rich spouse to rich spouse).

We covered university costs in our divorce financial consent order - that I should pay them and I would have done whether we divorced or not so I have no problem with that part of it. Occasionally their father has paid for something eg last year one asked for money for his new mobile and his father paid it but if you average that over 10 years and divide between 5 children that kind of gift is pretty de minimis. I remember asking if he could look after the youngest when I had to leave at 5am for business trips abroad or early trains to the North for work (he lives 5 minutes away) and he said "I'd rather not". It's pretty hard to find childcare if you dont' have someone living in at that kind of period 5am to 9am. Anyway we managed. It was more the lack of childcare help that was harder for me (having the children 365 nights a year as you cannot force contact on absent parents) than the money side which was have managed to get through and I kept the house and he knew that which is why he withdrew the one thing that might have helped me after - looking after the children although we we still had a full time daily nanny at that stage for a few months before the twins started "big school".

Sorry this is long but I am putting off starting work ... the university point above is interesting. As people say the full student loan if you don't live at home does not cover your rent although if you rent cheaply and don't go out and get a job students can self support just about. In practice most will be living at home in holidays - I just had mine home for 3 months most of the time over the summer. My heating bills halved this year when they and their older brother left and then they and the food bills go up when they come home. My older 3 came back home to live after university - the girls were doing 2 years law school in London and I was happy to support them all at that period but I agree the law in England does not put a legal obligation on any parent to have children home in university holidays nor once they graduate. This is unusual but I am funding them all without student debt - when we did the divorce consent order student fees were £1k an school fees were about £10k so it was not much. They then grew to £3k. Of course now they are £9250 per twin (I paid one set yesterday so am still suffering the pain) it's a bigger thing but totally my choice - most parents don't pay and if your child does not earn much (which is often the case) then you have wasted your money paying the fees.

However at the end of the day like most higher earners I will still be better off than he is, not that money particularly co-relates to happiness anyway. Very important point is we both worked very hard indeed over 20 years. This not a divorce where one person sat around and did nothing. It is just that my work pays better and I had deliberately chosen better paid work.

I am sure divorce law will not move towards who paid for what and getting back what you paid for England. What is should do however is cut spousal maintenance entirely where you both work full time in my view and I would like a 50/50 presumption of care and residence of children unless the court or parents agree otherwise which would help all those fathers denied any contact and would help those full time wokring mothers who would like 50% or even in my case 10% would have been very helpful.

JugglingaBoxofFrogs · 04/10/2018 08:47

I hope we get a settlement without going to court. I am prepared to make a reasonable settlement but my ex seems to believe he is entitled to a whole lot more. He has mentioned a sum way beyond what we even have!

We seem to be living parallel lives.... I am in exactly the same position.