Worst decision a woman could make

[Notbeingrobbed]

As a working mother with two children to support, my divorce has made me see that getting married was the worst financial decision I ever made.

I have been the higher earner so will lose a big chunk of the money that I have made throughout my life. I also have the kids to support (happy to).

My ex will get a big payout having benefitted from my income as well as his own for years.

Why would any modern woman marry? Oh, because we are all influenced by society (and hormones) to think it’s a good thing.

People say I am arguing like a man. But the law was surely designed to protect a stay-at-home mother with children from a husband who leaves. Not to protect a layabout-at-home father?

@xenia I am sure your children will all appreciate how much you have done for them. Well done.

As people say the full student loan if you don't live at home does not cover your rent although if you rent cheaply and don't go out and get a job students can self support just about

Exactly. That's what students must do. I worked over the long 16 week summer holidays to help towards Uni living costs and also paid my parents board and lodgings as opposed to living at home for free.

What is should do however is cut spousal maintenance entirely where you both work full time in my view

That pretty much mirrors my case. SM stops when child reaches age 14 as Ex can then work full time.

yup this happened to me. Higher earner. Had to buy him out of the house at great expense even though I kept the dcs full time and looked after them and he claimed he was so badly off he couldn't pay child maintenance etc. We did a clean break divorce and thank god we did as if I'd had to continue trying to get money off him, it would have killed me.

I would never marry again.

@MissedTheBoatAgain with respect, I think you’ll find that student funding has changed a bit since your day!

my exh, in the divorce, claimed he was entitled to be living in a 4 bed house in a v nice London location 'because this was the style in which he was used to living'. Our family house is smaller than that. So he wanted a bigger house, for himself, while me and the kids continued living where we were (and he wanted me to buy that for him). Cheeky fucker. Luckily the judge laughed that one out of court.

anyway long gone now. But I do feel your pain :). I lost a substantial and I mean substantial amount of money in the divorce. Whereas he just picked up where he left off, with a huge lumpsum from me, kept his collosal pension and went and shacked up with someone 15 years younger, waited a few months post divorce and took up a job earning loads more. C'est la vie.

@DaffoDeffo OMG my sympathies.

Student funding has only changed in the sense it is easier for students now however. In the past when I went if you did not get the full grant you either had to earn to make up the difference or your parents paid but they were not obliged to. Now the mainenance loan is less than most (but not all) rents. I think it's about £4k if you live away from home not in London although if your parents are very badly off it may be more. Some rents in halls (although not Oxbridge which is cheaper) are £5k to £8k. So whilst my minimum grant was £50 and full grant would have been £900 and my parents made up the difference, today you would get about £4k and hope a parent might make it up to £8k or that you earn enough to pay the difference. Also the other big difference is the "9% graduate tax" if you take the loans.

(interestingly as I am scanning my university diaries i recently took my halls rent in about 1982 and compared it with today at exactly the same hall and after inflation - not before - the rents for the same place in university hall are 3x the price)

like xenia though, it was just a case that i was/am in a profession where I earn a lot more. He did work, exh, but just in a far lower paid profession.

One of mine is at university now. It's the living costs that are a killer. The loan for the fees is available to everyone. I don't mind supporting them, I always felt it was my role to do so.

It really upsets me to keep reading that, apparently, 18 year old uni students, even if they still live at home, are not relevant in divorce settlements

When people reach age 18 they are adults and responsible for their own decisions and the consequences thereof including whether or not they choose to attend University. End of discussion.

I am her Mother. She is very relevant to me

But the Law was not determined by you.

My ex tried the same argument as her daughter (my Stepdaughter aged 22 at the time) was at University.

The Judge at MPS No.1 said she was not relevant as over 18
The Judge at the FDA said she was not relevant as over 18
The Judge at MPS No.2 said she was not relevant as over 18
The Judge at FDR said she was not relevant as over 18
The Judge at MPS No.3 said she was not relevant as over 18
The Judge at Final Hearing said she was not relevant as over 18

Six different Judges all saying the same thing. So obviously very clear in Law.

At Final Hearing Ex's Barrister stated that Ex needed capital settlement to buy a 3 bedroom house so my Stepdaughter would have somewhere to live whilst she found a job. One bedroom each for; Ex, our Son and Ex's Daughter.

Judge's reply was priceless:

"So when your client's daughter finds a Job and leaves home does your client agree to sell the 3 bedroom house and downsize to a 2 bedroom house and refund the Capital difference to her Ex husband?"

Ex's wife Barrister could not answer.

Re the comments on uni - well im in this predicament too - except my situation wouldn’t have enabled my kids to remain in the family home until completion of GCSEs if my x had had his way.

As it is I am struggling to maintain the status quo for my kids until completion of a levels next year.

Do not ever under estimate the spite that someone can hold even when it is them that had an affair and chose to leave the marriage.

It was a “joint” decision kids went to private school - school was chosen as had facility to continue to a level. It was also pretty much accepted they would go to uni.

I say “joint” decision in as much as x put their names down as soon as they were born and as I was SAHM with no intention of this changing - again joint decision as it was affordable and my medical history- I went with it. It was never ever suggested that I needed to work to help out financially!

Roll on til kids are 13 affair and everything changes. Company no longer doing so well - note here OW works for company - family home backs onto fields that had been previously been subject to consideration for planning for 1000s of houses. X actively involved in opposing this. Out of nowhere comes offer from developer to purchase house - it’s above market value and as we have no money as manipulated by x - he takes me to court to get house sold. Judge dismisses my cash orders house sold in 20 mins - have since found out he retired 6 weeks later.

X refused me to attend meetings with developer saying I was emotionally unstable. His deal was we as in me & kids could remain in home for 6 months - this would be 6 month s before kids sat GCSEs. Final hearing not yet scheduled as x refusing to get company valued properly. I managed to get this extended to a year so that it covered kids exams.

I got shafted in my settlement x ran up debts of £102k to wipe out equity in house which was £650 - school fees were knocked off even though I tried to get kids Into state school due to x continually claiming these were unaffordable! He took me to court to get them to remain at PS which was agreed but with him having to sign court order to pay these out of settlement! Judge messed this up at court. Email I sent to her afterwards was never dealt with.

X came out with 220 I came out with 320 which included 2 years of spousal at 30k and the remains of a critical illness policy that paid out to me when I was diagnosed with breast cancer just as he left. I used this money to support myself and kids throughout divorce process even though x was paying nothing and was desperately trying to get this money frozen. Without this I would have gone under financially months ago or been forced into whatever employment I could get. Note nothing for business which x got 100% - ordered to sign over my 50% shareholding for nothing - my contribution to 20 year marriage was effectively valued at 30k - the 2 years spousal I got!

I am supposedly able to house myself and the kids locally going forward. I am able ( according to judges opinion) to secure fulltime employment at age 55 having been out of workplace for 20 years and with diagnosed depression. I have been funding my Ds pS fees out of this settlement as x claimed he could no longer afford for them both to remain at school to complete a levels. Dd changed but Ds was suicidal at this prospect - google did how to kill yourself at school - school picked up on it x dismissed it as schoolboy prank - Ds was referred to camhs at divorce - refused to go after attending 1 session

I am paying rent on former family home out of settlement to try and keep kids stable for a levels.

All maintenance stops at 18 - I have court tribunal for CMS bought by the x on 1 November . He is in arrears by 5k.

If I remain in this area I can just about buy a 2 bed flat - I currently live in a 4 bed detached on a large plot in the best road in town. I have no idea about my prospects of employment more so how I would cope mentally - I am not good under pressure? My judge told me my depression would subside once divorce finalised - it has intensified to the point where I was first diagnosed with PTSD after being bullied at work 20 years ago - my last employment ! I have been under adult mental health twice!

Currently I am awaiting urgent surgery on my back which was supposed to happen within 4 weeks of 27 July. I cannot walk very far I cannot lift anything I cannot move very much - I have no idea when this surgery will take place I now seem to have slipped through the net even though they tried to put a failsafe on this. I now have to go back to my gp to get him to refer me back to a & e for the 3rd time to spend a day sitting around before they tell me they are not going to operate on me because I am still able to control my bladder. I want to say fuck it to this and stop being careful and do all the things I usually do but I can’t a because of the pain and b because I could damage myself permanently.

Had my solicitor done her job properly I would still have been able to afford private medical insurance and could have had this done by now.

As for buying a new home. I’m looking at 200 miles away I’m trying to maximise house for money. This would be ok if it was all affordable but to do this means I can no longer continue to rent family home until kids finish a levels - currently I’m at Xmas. Kids are aware of this so is x.

Company seems to have recovered enough to enable him to rent locally at the same vale as family home so he can see kids when he chooses and have bought with OW. He ignores my emails telling him that kids may have to live with him to finish school.

As for uni kids are meant to be applying now - Dd has looked into it - she will end up being anything in excess of 30k in debt after loan and living costs x has told them they will get full grant because I am on benefits.

This was not the “plan” and I think this is conservative figure - this is madness being in debt to government for £30k at age of 21! If it was the other way round and they wanted a loan it would be laughed at.

This is where I come back to what do we tell our DD’s - it’s not just our Dd but our Ds too. My Dd used to be pretty carefree about money - she has a job - she now I would say is obsessed by money - she writes down everything she’s budgeting for this that the other. She is becoming like her father and not in a nice way. She is 17!

She has a boyfriend he sounds like you’re dh op - has a similar job - spends most of what he earns seems pretty carefree - she has already commented on his financial ways. But he too is from a divorced family I know the mother well I would say she has done everything to make sure her kids are as unharmed as possible by a twat of a DF! The Dsis of the family slightly older flits from one job to the next one boyfriend to the next pretty unsettled by life.

If I go on your values Op I tell Dd to ditch the boyfriend because he is unlikely to live up to her expectations - will he change - will he mature with kids to be responsible for ?

On the other hand her DF was very work focused to the detriment of family life to some point so I was at home always at home - in some ways already a single parent without the financial worry!

Do I tell my Dd make sure you have enough money so that if you have kids you can support yourself if you chose to take maternity leave! Do I tell my Dd go to uni as this will give you a head start on the career ladder ( supposedly/ hopefully) but this is going to cost you £30k - how will this tie in with supporting yourself lock stock & barrel when kids come along!

As for Ds my values tell me to tell him you will always be responsible for any children you have regardless of the circumstances and this will be financially first - or is it emotionally or is it equal - the courts seem to imply it’s equal across the board but the financial responsibility impacts on everything. Do I tell him to make sure you have a good enough job to be able to support a future wife and kids or do I tell him make sure whatever you earn you protect even if you have a wife and kids -

I’m not really sure what I’m trying to say here but this has blown my mind - I need to find some headspace to tackle today’s tasks!

I think basically there is no easy answer we all do what we think is right sometimes we are lucky or maybe not - depends how you chose to look at it - maybe it’s just a case of be grateful for what you have/ can do today because it can all change.

How I support my kids at 18 I have no fucking idea - I can’t rely on x - maybe it’s a case of grow my own veg and become veggie!

Well, you were a step-dad. That can be the only reason for not feeling the same bond and duty of care that the mothers here feel for their over-18s. They may legally be adults but they are still our children.

MissedTheBoatAgain - I understand all of this. As a mother who feels that family support is important, it's a very difficult pill to swallow given that my XH has no interest in supporting his children, or even talking to them. I just don't feel it's fair that my DD should suffer financially because of a decision her parents have made. In my head, it's the injustice of it. I cannot change the law though, so this is just something else I have to suck up as a result of him walking out. BTW, I am the lower earner in our case and he has provided no financial support to us.

@MissedTheBoatAgain with respect, I think you’ll find that student funding has changed a bit since your day!

I did not receive any Grants as both parents were working. Neither on what would be considered a high wage. Both worked for NHS. One a a Driver and other as Nurse.

They paid me £245 per term. At that time Deeds of Covenant were available so Tax Relief Parents could claim added a further £105. That covered the Hall of Residence Costs

Before any one squeals that my parents had the advantage of the Deed of Covenant don't forget that today the base rate of Tax is 20% whereas as when I was at Uni basic rate was 33%

Social money I had to save myself by working over the long summer breaks

I am the lower earner in our case and he has provided no financial support to us

Does he work? Have you applied to CMS for an assessment? Have you claimed all your entitlements such as, Child Benefit, Child Tax Credit, Reduced Council Tax.

My Divorce was acrimonious as ex made into a contest to the delight of the Legal people. Ex could have had a much larger capital settlement had she not involved the courts and I would have rather seen the money in her pocket than Legal.

Sounds like you are one of the unfortunate ones that married what women term as a deadbeat?

@greenberet you have had a hard time. What do we tell our children? This is so difficult.

I have told them both to never marry. DD says it is not fair that because it hasn’t worked out for me I should stop her having a relationship. Of course I don’t want to stop her being happy (hopefully) but I mean the law is unfair. Particularly to working women.

DS listens but has not yet commented. I do agree men must realise that if they have children they must always, always take financial responsibility. So must women.

I did save up for maternity leave etc and then went back to work to support us all. A lot of people have to do this but I realise some people are able to make other arrangements. I think that will change in future as property prices are so high.

I think we all want our kids to do their best. A lot of youngsters have £30k plus uni debt. Mine will too. I just want to save them the living costs - I’d say those are a minimum of £10k a year. Whether their jobs will make this worthwhile is uncertain.

Maybe the lesson from this is that we should all become lawyers! I do think the law must be changed to reflect modern life.

“Deadbeat”...this is pure victim blaming.

Notbeingrobbed - it sounds to me like your DH is being fed what he is entitled to by his legals - keep you fighting as long as possible Ramp up the fees - I think my sols played on my insecurities ie being financially stitched up and I was.

I don’t think your DH is going to be reasonable he has no responsibility as such he will play this out as long as possible knowing he has nothing much to loose - worst case he comes out with where he started best case you end up paying for him and doing the childcare!
Meanwhile the emotional toll on you and the financial one if you chose to fight this could be immense - but if you do where do you stop.

I wanted to stop long before I got to court I had an offer which now I would be £150k better off. Sols told me I could not survive on this I needed joint lives spousal - they led me to court and then bailed out on me as my emotional distress lessened and my brain kicked in - I could see their inconsistencies and picked them up on this!

I’m now trying to pursue negligence - I believe my judges conduct is questionable I believe she should have stopped the barristers questioning when I shouted my depression leaves me suicidal something she would have know from the medical records on my file! My x solicitors conduct is also questionable when I had to be LIP.

I’m pursuing them all - it’s taking its time and it’s toll but ultimately they are professionals that did not act according to their profession - are you prepared to do this if in your eyes you loose or will you just walk away! If the answer to this is no walk away now. I wish I had not listened to my solicitor when I had the offer in the table but somehow I’m also think I’m meant to fight this. Will I achieve anything I have no bloody idea maybe I just cannot let go - one day I will know the answer to this

I am doing all this for my kids or so I believe - I keep thinking I’ve had enough but then something turns up and I go a bit more - do not assume that just because I chose to stay home with my kids I am unskilled - maybe my motive is some other force - although money helps! Good luck

I just want shot of him but my solicitor says to wait to see what assets he disclosed. I don’t think he has any but we will see.

Green, you have had a terrible time and I am sorry yuou have depression. you say you cannot work with depression. I don't know how bade it is but a lot of people do manage to work full time with it so perhaps have a think about that. Your husband has behaved very badly. most parents want to keep their children in their home and at private school. We both did. and in fact it was one of my aims of the divorce to keep them in school and in our house. I think more people shyoudl be told to compromise even if they lose a lot of money. I have never regretted my husband getting 59% rather than a lower % had we gone to court. At one point he and I had a verbal deal and then he wanted even more. I agreed another £100k to him to avoid court costs (I was paying both side's lawyers and in total we spent £20k on that). He then came back wanting even more and then I said okay we go to court but he didn't want and this lawyer would have been telling him he already had a good offer.

In general when people settle money disputes if both sides come away witha court hearing feeling a bit hard done to that probably means it's a reasonable deal.

I suppose the best advice to our children is never give up work and try to choose well paid work where you can. I have grandchildren too and their (married) parents both work so that should ensure an element of equity and similarity were there any break up. I have not put off my children marrying as many marriages last (mine is just about the only divorce in our famly and I have been doing the family tree back to the 1700s so I know)

No notbeingrobbed - the answer is not to become lawyers - certainly not from my experience I refer to them as crooks in suits - we are losing sight of what matters - what really matters - I was going to say my dds debt would be nearer 60kbut when I went to write this I thought no this can’t re right this figure is absurd but actually I think it is this figure she’s looking in London! It is ive just checked with her

Sometimes we have to question what has become norm - as most of us are saying the law is out of date it’s not protecting us - with or without marriage - you just have too look at some of the other threads on MN to realise how ridiculous we become when “rules” are taken too far - look at the thread with the female pupil not allowed to use the loo during her period - we are becoming inhumane because we cannot see common sense over rules?

My x claims the financial strain was too much yet ironically he chose his own business because this would give him more flexiibility - just like his own DF - except his DF was content with being a sole trader x wanted to be recognised as the best in the industry - dealing with his own skeletons!
And yet he is encouraging his own kids to start their working career with this huge amount of debt - and this is even before they contemplate a mortgage - at a time when house prices are ridiculously high

My train of thought is we need to be self sufficient we are being sold down the river by people who’s lives will never be effected by the decisions they make - when they’ve had enough they can sit and count the money they already have - they are certainly not counting the pennies.,

I started off in the vein of support myself own house good job car etc after being dicked around by a couple of boyfriends - thought then I’d never rely on anyone again. I’m not sure I’ve ever mentioned this on MN before but in for a penny in for a pound - I got pregnant by a boyfriend I knew deep down was not the one - even though we were playing at grown ups. For me at the time kids meant being within marriage - probably a result of an overcaring mother who meant her best. And I knew I could not marry him - didn’t “believe” in being a single parent so had a termination even though I was probably better suited to being a single parent then. My comeuppance for this i then needed ivf - very nearly could not have had kids - the circumstances around this make my current situation even more severe.

Even now I have to make decisions that are conflicting me - putting me in a downward spiral. My default I believe is to trust in the good of people but how many lessons do we need to go through - or is it not to trust in the good of people but trust in ourselves.

I can no longer trust in either I don’t know my own ability to judge personally or professionally and I’m having to make decisions - huge decisions that will impact on everyone concerned . I’m also trying to believe in that things will turn out ok but this is putting trust in something/ someone bigger than us and this is hard too!

Something has just popped into my mind and I tell you why we are not making progress I started off my career in a bank - two of us equal standing, pretty much equal ability - one job to be put on fast track management progression - I didn’t get it and at this time in my life not a maternal bone in my body - I don’t need to tell you other person was male!

I’d forgotten about this til just now but I expect this explains my thinking - maybe I thought nobody could question my ability/ dedication to being a mother but I was wrong too on this - even the kids own father did this when he needed to stab me in the back to justify his own shortcomings!

I think my mood is low today I have stuff to do but I really can’t get motivated

green, I am sorry you didn't get that early banking promotion. We moved to London before children for my career although it certainly did his career no harm, quite the opposite.

I am sure like most parents you have done your best for your children.

Going forwards your husband is right that the children getting degrees is going to be very useful for them unless they are at poor institutions which are not well regarded. The debt is not really a debt. You don't pay it back unless you earn over a certain amounts, most people won't pay it back - instead tax payers like I am will subsidise it for those who don't pay it back and once you earn enough it is "just" 9% of your pay over the about £21k threshold until it and the interest is repaid. So I would not put your children off on those grounds (and had you kept working full time they might not have needed that debt - my children have no student debt because I have always worked full time and can now afford to pay their student fees although that is pretty rare).

In your case I would start off by dealing with the depression as well as you can. Sometimes a full time job cheers people up and distracts them from it but other times they are so ill they can hardly get out of bed so only you will know what is possible for you in your own situation.

whichever way you look at it, the fact that we were high earners gave us choices. Ok, the law, the way it works now, rewards women who don't work. But we have had choices the whole way through our lives, choices as to how we live, how we help our children live. And I would always rather have that than live off a man by not working. And I will always encourage my children to be the same.

@greenberet it sounds a classic case. You started with such potential. Then the male colleague was promoted - this happens often, still, because if men are doing the promoting they rate the other men.

Then you took a back seat career wise because society is happy for women to do that, in fact women who don’t do that are seen as “selfish”. I’m sure you are a great mum.

But when the husband then pulls the plug or the split happens, however it happens, you are left with nothing. I do see why the law is there to protect you. But it also continues a system where right at the start women are not taken so seriously in the workplace.

I am not in Xenia’s league and the assets I will lose have taken a very long time to accumulate. The uncertainty is the worst thing though, and the injustice. Most of all I’d like to get it over.

Yes, it's hard. Divorce is hard for everyone whether you work or don't whether male or female and of course the children (who matter most of all and didn't choose this).

In our case I changed firms when not kept on after I qualified but I didn't give up and stay at home I just got a job at better firm. I like a lot of men and women have had set backs, deaths, divorce, problems but if you just keep plugging away at your full time career whether male or female at least it means there is that security of full time earnings and it is far easier to support two homes after divorce if you have a full time set of earnings each.

Then uncertainty is indeed the worst which is one reason we lived together all 7 months it took to divorce, transfer property and money and get the financial consent order so we could get it done fairly quickly but we did not need disclosure as only had joint accounts, read each other's post, did each other's tax returns had total access to everything financial and knew everything about the other's finances so did not need things like form E or financial disclosure or any court hearings which is not the case for some where spouses hide assets or you have never even seen their annual P60 or their annual tax return.