Am I being too greedy (EXDH says I am). Need objective opinion.

[numbbrain]

We are about to be divorced and I have made him an offer which he has declined and says is too greedy.

I would really appreciate any objective facts either from professional opinion or cases you know of.

23 years married - both 53
DH - slary £85K + 40k bonus yearly.
Pension CETV 640k
Bought new house with 220k mortgage

Me - earn about 8k part time work.
Left good job to look after children
Diagnosed later with complex PTSD
Pension CETV 24k
Living in home with 298k equity and 73k mortgage outstanding

3 children live with me when not at university.

He has offered for me to have the equity in the house and pension of 170k. His solicitor says that the trade off for capital and pension is 25%.

I am looking for equity, plus 300k pension.

Am I being greedy.

TIA

At the moment, I run the business from a study, but just need a desk, computer and some cupboard space.

For 220k I could only get a 2 bed house.

As a single person why do you need a house that has more than 2 bedrooms?

Court Orders are based on NEEDS ONLY. Wants, wishes, point scoring and desire to be better off than Ex will not enter the equation. That your 3 adult children choose of their own free will to be with you as opposed to their father is immaterial.

I say this as my Ex wife tried the same line of argument in 2 hearings and both Judges stated clearly;

"The daughter is 22 and at University being supported by grants. Therefore she is not a dependent child. However, son who is 10 is certainly a dependent child who should have a bedroom of his own till aged 18. Therefore your statement that you NEED a bedroom that has at least 3 bedrooms is dismissed."

She also argued that the 2 seater car I had given her was no use as a family car as could not transport Son and Daughter at same time.

My Barrister replied;

"Ex wife has had same vehicle for over 2 years and it has been sufficient to transport herself and dependent child. Daughter has had vehicle of her own since aged 17 paid for by Ex husband. So Ex does not NEED a vehicle that has more than 2 seats. Also dependent child's school, Ex wife's place of work and supermarkets are all within walking distance of family home. So a vehicle, whilst desirable to have, is not an essential NEED as demonstrated by fact that family did not have any vehicle in the first 2 years of marriage."

Barrister then went on to quote Family Law and case law that obliged Courts to make orders based on NEEDS as opposed to wants.

Judge agreed 100%.

Missedtheboat - could tell you were a bloke!

Op as someone up thread said do not rely on the courts being fair - their version of fair will be completely different to yours and there is no consistency in decisions - making the whole thing a bloody gamble with very high stakes that you pay through the nose for!

Your DH sounds like an arse and he is going to play this out and you will end up in court - this will cost you emotionally and financially - the longer he drags this out the less “need” there will be for your kids to have a home to return to and I expect the family home will be sold. If he runs up debts during the process which seems to be a tactic these arses use he will have more justification for the house to be sold to release equity to cover these.

I don’t know why the courts seem to think that once kids turn 18 they are fully self supportive but with all child benefits stopping at this age it makes it very tricky.

The best advice I can give you as someone who got completely screwed over is to let your DH drag this out - that way you get to stay in the home for as long as possible - take your share of the savings as security - I’d even go as far as to say you are entitled to the £50,000 too but this will antagonise him - btw was the endowment just in his name - did he cash it in early? I’m assuming there is other life insurance to cover the mortgage if necessary!

I maybe wrong he may be “decent” but in my mind he would acknowledge the kids still need a home and he wouldn’t have cleared out the endowment!

Focus on yourself use the time to get your business up and running!

I am one of the 50+ women where it was a joint decision I stay home not only whilst kids were young but for duration of 20 yr marriage! I have long term depression which was one of influencing factors and twins too - x was quite happy with this situation until he ran off with an employee of his! I Was told by a female judge I can get back to fulltime work in 2.5 years earning £20k plus to support myself- my depression will ease once divorce is over well funny this I have been worse since as ive had to deal with the stress of trying to maintain the former family home for the kids to get to 18 to finish their a levels - my x has taken me through CMS right to court of appeal to minimise his payments still ongoing - I’m paying for my Ds to remain at his private school as the change that nearly came about due to x claiming he can no longer afford to pay nearly tipped ds over the edge - x has just come back from a luxury holiday - I expect the cost of this would cover 1 terms fees!

Currently I’m having to consider moving 200 miles away to maximise what’s left of my settlement to have a home that the kids can come back to! I’m not confident to secure a job let alone keep it with my depressive symptoms - the person upthread who said there is help available - I think you need to look at the individual case!

I’m trying to hang on til kids get to 18 but currently I think Christmas is as far as it will go - the kids will then have to go to the x - who as well as buying a property with OW since divorce still rents the local property he has here to see the kids eow & once a week _ double standards all when the business was going down the pan! He doesn’t give a stuff what happens - how will it affect the kids if I’m living 200 miles away? He lied in court - I sent proof he lied in court - judge ignored it! I ended up LIP and I don’t think the courts like this - can’t have a nobody doing well In court when I’ve spent bloody years in the profession so shafted me! IM not the only one - they think you will just accept it - well think again! Too many people are having their lives destroyed all they think about is the money and how many cases they can get under their belt! Honest, lawful, fair? Doesn’t come into it!

Missedtheboat - could tell you were a bloke!

Law does not discriminate between genders.

The best advice I can give you as someone who got completely screwed over is to let your DH drag this out - that way you get to stay in the home for as long as possible -

Bad advice. My ex did same and Courts took into account that Ex had had a house and vehicle with all costs paid by self for two years until she was ordered by the Court to leave the house. Judge also took into account my Legal costs as I was the respondent that was forced into a protracted divorce. Ex had settlement reduced by almost £20K to compensate my costs.

I don’t know why the courts seem to think that once kids turn 18 they are fully self supportive but with all child benefits stopping at this age it makes it very tricky

At age 18 people are seen as Adults as opposed to dependent Children. The Law has been like that for a long time.

I’d agree most 18-year-olds are not financially independent and able to pay for housing in the south east of England (or elsewhere). In fact most are students with the implicit indication in the government funding that parents will top-up any loans.

In a civilised world the absent parent would give them money independently. But normally they don’t. The law is behind the times on this as with everything else.

Having said that, I don’t see why any fully grown parent, whatever the age of the children, should not expect to do some work to support themselves. This is not Gilead.

They may be seen as adults but in reality how many are fully self supporting at age 18 - at one time they could leave school at 16 and enter into fulltime employment - not so currently

It may be THE LAW but it does not make sense - and Infact I would claim that it does discriminate against genders and also against children - because despite the family courts claiming that children need to be protected and that they come first - their decisions in my case have done nothing but put my kids under more stress!

I would have been better off having my kids through a sperm donor raising them single handedly and knowing where I was from the start! Without being duped into “ marriage provides security” “the law will protect you” and having to deal with the fuckery caused by a father who really can’t be arsed with the responsibility of his own kids _ only when it suits him.

I don’t know what your issue is - you seem to have got the better hand of your ex wife - so why aren’t you happy?

Yeah my absent parent is telling the kids to apply for loans off the back of my non working status so that they qualifying for full grant - my Dd has been looking into this - she will come out of uni owing near on £50k - has the world gone mad!

Yes, I am very concerned. He has manipulated the situation well.

Take the money to buy himself a 4 bed house, drag out the process until the children are 18 and then force me to sell the house so the children can’t live with me during the holidays.

What a man. All under the disguise of “supporting me and wanting me to keep the house”.

Could the judge make him sell his house too? After all as we’re still married is half of it mine? He did use joint assets to buy it.

Could the judge make him sell his house too?

Yes. Judges have almost unlimited powers when it comes to Financial Orders.

numbbrain, Is your Ex being completely uncompromising?

ime and those of friends Judges are highly unpredictable, especially with finances. Ideally you talk to a solicitor but at they will not be able to give you definitive outcome if it went to court.

A barrister might be able to provide greater insight, given they are in court more frequently and you could ask for a view.

It is however so frustrating as court is a gamble and no one leaves court happy.I did better than Ex's proposal but he threw so much mud, lied and was generally vicious that it destroyed any chance we had of joint parenting going forwards.

My concern is that you may need to focus on how you sustain yourself in retirement as you don't appear well provided for.

If your ex will not compromise then court is your only route but it is costly, think 20k each minimum and introduces an adversial approach.

So many women accepted not having pensions whilst raising children and sadly it impacts in situations like yours as the men believe the pension is only theirs. Ex & I struggled financially at times,especially in the early days, however we never stopped paying into his (our) pension...we stopped mine however!!

CETV can be lower and Ex's barrister used that point but pension report validated the numbers which worked in our favour.

Another site to get views is wikedivorce. I don't think there is harm in trying to research outcomes and determine a baseline you can't go below then propose that to your Ex.Hopefully he will compromise rather than take the court route.

Numb - don’t call me cynical but I doubt it - he’s deliberately taken on a large mortgage with little equity - by the time costs are taken out - there won’t be that much left - certainly not the equity in the family home - this is VERY attractive to all those earning a fee off the back of your divorce

I get your concern - the manipulation some will go to to do what? Protect their ego is evil - where are your kids? I really don’t know what to suggest - you may be lucky and get a sympathetic judge - the situation may change in a couple of years - just one other question how did he manage to get another mortgage when he is already on one?

Right at the start of my divorce I took £4000 from a joint bank account I was panicking as to how I would survive - my x was furious that I did this - claimed I would be blasted at court for “stealing” joint money blah blah blah - twist of fate got breast cancer and insurance policy paid out - meant I had money to survive - but X was even madder but could not show this - hence running up debts of £102k - I believed the law was just - I was frightened to be seen as doing the wrong thing - my court hearing biggest load of old bollocks I have ever heard!

Protect yourself - if your x is nasty and I suspect he is from the hand he has already shown - you need to - at the end of the day it’s not really who did what it’s who has the better barrister if you use one - and if you decide you can’t afford one take what you can now - sadly it’s a messy nasty game!

Missedtheboat - I don’t think your experience is relative to Op!

I don’t know what your issue is - you seem to have got the better hand of your ex wife - so why aren’t you happy?

Ex wife made it difficult for herself. I was the applicant for the Divorce and she was the applicant for the Financial Order. She ignored the Court Order for disclosure. 3 aborted Emergency Maintenance Hearings as documents not filed in time. Wanted every penny I earned in future for maintenance and all assets including my parents house!

At Final Hearing refused to go in front of the judge on basis that I had to disprove her claims. So Judge made Order based on my disclosure and the details I had of wife's overseas assets that I had bought before marriage. Order was much less favourable than what I had offered wife at the beginning of the divorce 2 years earlier as by time Final Hearing took place a large chunk of capital had been spent on Legal Fees.

A great shame as I would have rather given the money to ex wife and DS instead of paying legal costs. Anger, revenge and greed was her downfall.

She made it a contest and was worse off for doing so.

Missedtheboat - I don’t think your experience is relative to Op!

I hope nobody goes through the same divorce as I did. Even my solicitor who has been family law specialist for over 20 years said it was the most strange case she had worked on.

I think the problem OP is that you are mixing what you feel is right with what you might be legally entitled to, which is understandable but is distorting the reality of the situation. What your adult children may or may not do in the future is irrelevant. I have no legal knowledge whatsoever but I think you might need to try and focus less on what you feel is right and pay for proper legal advice so you are armed with the facts.

As for joint parenting - that’s another bloody joke _ my Ds has had suicidal tendencies - my x refuses to acknowledge any of it - because if he did he would have to admit his actions have had a detrimental impact on his own kids - who are his PRIORITY in all this - all he’s really concerned about is his top notch reputation in his industry and so his affair was justified as I’m in the crazy bitter ex wife who’s twisted his DD’s mind and made his life a misery for 20 years! Bring out the violins!

I know I’m being glib - I have been on the floor many a time - but once your case is over there will be another one along in a minute maybe two or three! This is your life and that of your kids and only you will fight for them - do what you have to do - you get one chance - don’t be intimidated by The Law - it can be interpreted any way you like!

This is your life and that of your kids and only you will fight for them - do what you have to do - you get one chance - don’t be intimidated by The Law - it can be interpreted any way you like!

There are facts however that can't be 'interpereted'. That being that the DC are adults.

she will come out of uni owing near on £50k - has the world gone mad

At last I agree with GreenBeret. What has happened to students in recent years is bad. Fees seemed to triple overnight. 6% interest rate on loans. I imagine many students never see a payback on their investment in a Degree?

As soon as DS was born I set up Child Trust Fund that myself and his grandparents pay in the maximum allowed every year. Hopefully by time he reaches 18 there will be enough funds to avoid Student Loans if he decides University is what he wants.

I expect my X could tell a story similar to yours - and sorry I don’t believe a word solicitors say any more _ they say whatever they need to say depending on their perspective!

As for facts - you’d be surprised how facts can get distorted, manipulated or even ignored - on this basis there should only be one outcome for one case but as others have already said the judges own personal agenda can influence the outcome - this is not law - this is playing at God!

Yes sadly the only fact that will be taken into account is the kids are 18 - and the kids that should be protected are likely to be your Achilles heel! Op good luck - unfortunately you can’t pay for luck!

I think you might need to try and focus less on what you feel is right and pay for proper legal advice so you are armed with the facts.

I am with this all the way. OP could spend rest of their life posting trying to get opinions about what Courts will say. Even experienced family solicitors and Barristers are unable to say with certainty what a Court Order would be in advance.

Whilst the Law has guidelines for Judges to follow no two divorces will ever have identical circumstances.

Good luck OP and don't worry about Husband buying a 4 bedroom detached house as Courts will take that into account when making an Order and they can order him sell it if they think it is appropriate.

You need to accept that as your Children are over 18 it is very likely that courts will consider them irrelevant. However, I get the point that other have made about over 18's, particularly those at University, may not be able to support themselves.

However, I get the point that other have made about over 18's, particularly those at University, may not be able to support themselves.

Which would be between the DC and the DF.

I expect my X could tell a story similar to yours - and sorry I don’t believe a word solicitors say any more _ they say whatever they need to say depending on their perspective

I think my ex wife fell foul to that. She was charged £8K for Final Hearing compared to my £2K. Even my Barrister was shocked.

After Final Hearing I advised her to make a complaint to the Law Society, but she had no case as she had agreed to the Final Cost in advance. Many have said she got what she deserved for making it a Contest. However, I disagree. Contest or not does not give advisers to over charge.

Which would be between the DC and the DF.

What do you mean?

Which would be between the DC and the DF.

They are able to ask their DF directly for help. In law they are no longer minors.