Covid vaccine - can I refuse it for Mum?

[SinisterBumFacedCat]

DM has Alzheimer’s, 6 years in she is in a nursing home now, still responds to conversation (not always making sense), sleeps a lot, can’t walk unaided, functionally incontinent. I nearly lost her last month to bladder sepsis, after operating and seeing how confused her base level is the surgeon said next time it would be kinder to let nature take its course and I agree as she has zero quality of life now and I know that she used to think keeping people with dementia alive beyond this stage is cruel. Nursing home however works to a different set of values however and seem intent in keeping their residents going forever. I get this is their job, they get understandably attached to the residents but they don’t know the person from before and don’t always respect their wishes. I’ve had the inevitable email about COVID vaccine and I don’t want her to have it. I’m not an antivaxxer, she’s had them before, but she has never had Covid and a nurse I spoke to said she is unlikely to now and is probably immune. Mainly though I’m thinking she could be stuck like this for another decade, confused and anxious and scared. What’s the point? I’d rather she went out quicker with Covid/flu/pneumonia, so I’d rather not have her vaccinate. The problem is the nursing home might not take this very well or even allow it, they will probably think I’m uncaring when it’s in fact the opposite, I do care that she is in this prison of a disease and I want her free of it.
Has anyone had experience of refusing jabs? Do they judge you or even allow it?

Do you have power of attorney for health and welfare? If so then you can make the decision.

This^

I'd love to know which nurse said that if she hasn't had Covid so far (assuming that is true - she could have had it several times but no symptoms) she is probably immune. I have never had bubonic plague, but I am pretty sure I am not immune. Immunity is usually built up by exposure or by inherited if not achieved through vaccination.

You can decide whatever you like, but YABVVVU to suggest it’s better she suffers horribly with Covid, flu or pneumonia than die later.

I'm sorry you are in such a difficult situation with your Mum. Is the nursing home also considering the vaccine because it wants all the residents vaccinated for reasons of it sweeping through the home? I would be like you and for the sake of your mum not want to prolong her life under her particular circumstances.

What about the other residents and staff? Covid runs like wildfire through places like that, so keeping up to date with all jabs is more about protecting those around you rather than yourself really. Some of the other staff/residents may be unable to have the jabs because of genuine medical conditions, but are at increased risk if people in their proximity aren't fully jabbed and pass on something they've caught.

I don’t have health POA but I seem to have become the default decision maker anyway and have had to make the call on if they call paramedics/take her to hospital/operate.

So do you think she’s immune already so it’s pointless, OR are you hoping not being vaccinated will make her more vulnerable which is something you feel is in her best interest? These are very different thoughts and you need to be clear what your reasoning is. Do you have legal power to make health and welfare choices for her?

Do you have poa for health?

The chances are it won't kill her., just make her ill. Is this what you wsnt

I do get where you are coming from, but maybe the care home is thinking of the protection of the other residents too. Not just your mother.

There’s a reason pneumonia used to be called the old man’s friend.

Rather than waste away over decades until she’s a bed ridden skeleton who can’t communicate or comprehend the pain she is enduring, for YEARS. If that makes me Unreasonable then in your opinion then I accept it (not that I asked). It’s what I believe but also what she believed and if the roles were reversed I hope she would wish the same for me.

That nurse is an idiot. Your mother has just been lucky. She is not immune.

I completely understand why the Covid vaccine might not be the best choice for your mother. The catch is that it also is administered to protect other residents and staff. Shared living spaces like nursing homes put everyone at risk. Every person infected makes things more difficult.

I would ask yourself what kind of person your mother was when she had all her faculties. Was she someone who thought about the collective good? If so, I would get her vaccinated. If that was not a part of her personality, then you can prioritize her needs and skip it.

The nursing home can only act in her best interests, it's not their decision to vacinnate, keep residents alive or consent to any treatment, that is the responsibility of her g.p. and power of attorney if she lacks capacity, what was the plan when she left hospital, what surgery did she have. On her discharge plan was there a dnr form, a plan for any future intervention, the care home should have all this information in her care plan. A covid vaccinne would not stop her getting covid, or developing flu, there are many reasons people develop pneumonia. Do you have health poa. The best thing would be a meeting with the care home manager, try and go in when the gp does their visits, go through her careplan and discuss her future care, hospitalisation, level and ceiling of care , dnr and end of life planning which all nursing home residents should have. The staff cannot give any vacinnation without it being prescribed, you can always call her nominated GP.

This.

As well as passing it on to other frail residents. Your mother would need to be nursed while she died horribly. I do understand where you are coming from as my mother had dementia but I don't think you should refuse the vaccine.

I do get the other staff and residents need protecting. There was a horrendous norovirus that swept through last year and it was awful. But how do I know over relatives haven’t also not given consent to vaccines?

FWIIW, I agree with you on the principle, but having noted other comments, I don't think you have the right to play with other people's lives, and in a group home that is what you would be doing. If she were at home with you or isolated from other elderly/ frail people then that would be fair enough. But you are helping to leave open a door that might not kill her but could easily kill others who didn't make that choice. Being vaccinated only decreases the risk - it doesn't eliminate it for others.

This is really helpful, thank you

Exactly. My MIL spent a month suffering with double pneumonia. It's not pleasant - watching her in agony, confused, incoherent, delirious, writhing about on the bed in pain. It's neither a quick, gentle nor painless death.

Seen this update in which case you should not be taking any medical decisions , the carehome, paramedics and hospital staff know the law, you can apply for deputyship if she lacks capacity, otherwise the staff involved have to act in her best interests and take medical decisions. Does she have capacity to make her own decisions, this should all be documented in her files and assessments carried out, if you are listed as next of kin it is courteous for them to inform you when she's unwell and what action is being taken.

My mum (before dementia) told me she was not having any more. The care home asked if she was to receive it and I said no so they didn't administer it. It does not stop you getting Covid, nor does it increase the chance of other people getting it. Do what you think is best for your mum.

Thé Covid vaccine does not prevent transmission, at least, that’s what the manufacturer says.

There were families who refused covid/ flu jabs when I worked in a care home. I think it’s important to consider what happens next so for example she catches covid and develops pneumonia. Are you happy to turn down antibiotics? Are you going to decline future medical care apart from pain relief / palliative.

I don’t think it’s a bad decision but just be sure of your path.

Believe me, I have told them many times I don’t have medical POA. Home staff, doctors, surgeons, paramedics. But every time I have to make the final decision.

Thank you it’s really interesting to get a carers opinion.