Covid vaccine - can I refuse it for Mum?

[SinisterBumFacedCat]

DM has Alzheimer’s, 6 years in she is in a nursing home now, still responds to conversation (not always making sense), sleeps a lot, can’t walk unaided, functionally incontinent. I nearly lost her last month to bladder sepsis, after operating and seeing how confused her base level is the surgeon said next time it would be kinder to let nature take its course and I agree as she has zero quality of life now and I know that she used to think keeping people with dementia alive beyond this stage is cruel. Nursing home however works to a different set of values however and seem intent in keeping their residents going forever. I get this is their job, they get understandably attached to the residents but they don’t know the person from before and don’t always respect their wishes. I’ve had the inevitable email about COVID vaccine and I don’t want her to have it. I’m not an antivaxxer, she’s had them before, but she has never had Covid and a nurse I spoke to said she is unlikely to now and is probably immune. Mainly though I’m thinking she could be stuck like this for another decade, confused and anxious and scared. What’s the point? I’d rather she went out quicker with Covid/flu/pneumonia, so I’d rather not have her vaccinate. The problem is the nursing home might not take this very well or even allow it, they will probably think I’m uncaring when it’s in fact the opposite, I do care that she is in this prison of a disease and I want her free of it.
Has anyone had experience of refusing jabs? Do they judge you or even allow it?

I agree with you OP, there was many a time when I wished something would carry my mum off, it's a terrible illness and they can live for years in a horrible state, as you've said. Mum lasted 7 years in her nursing home, in nappies, bed ridden.

MIL had a sudden heart attack in her mid 80s, she was still living independently and was very well, she had been out to lunch with her best mate that day and my DD, popped in during the evening with her boyfriend for a catch up. What a lovely way to go. Terrible shock for the rest of us but brilliant for her.

Does mum have capacity, has she had a capacity assessment. Don't want to keep on but without poa you cannot legally make any medical decision doctors can treat patients in emergency situations when they can't consent. Who arranged her placement in the carehome, did she have capacity at the time to move, agree to live in a carehome and pay for it if she needed to. In this situation you need to speak with the GP and carehome manager, being next of kin has no legal meaning. This should have all been discussed and documented when she moved into the carehome. Responsibility for her care is with the resident, power of attorney, medical staff, personal representative, court of protection.

Not jabs but refused further treatment for my mum. Early onset Alzheimer’s and she developed a chest infection then sepsis and we refused treatment for the sepsis

I have H&W PoA and care for elderly parent with dementia and COPD. Parent is regularly vaccinated. I have watched my uncle die slowly of a chest infection, on a morphine pump, unconscious for days. I wouldn't want that for my parent if it can be avoided. The sound of them drowning in their own mucus whilst the pump driver pushed the meds is one that still haunts me.

We do however have 'what if' scenarios in place and DNR, so hopefully have got most things covered.

However, if you don't have PoA, whilst you can be consulted, you can't make the decision.

If you have LPOA you can make whatever decision you believe is in her best interests, but I don’t buy the ‘if she hasn’t had it by now she is probably immune’ story. In your position, I would discuss it with her GP. FWIW my elderly and frail
Mum is in a care home and I have agreed to vaccination on her behalf. Why subject them to a horrible illness if they can be spared it?

She really has no capacity. This is her 2nd career home, the first one gave us notice because of behaviour (crying and screaming and upsetting the other “clients”). (I had a whole thread on this at the time). Luckily the local mental health team was able to recommend this new nursing home, who actually know how to interact and manage her, but also understand these are symptoms of her Alzheimer’s. I have financial POA, I manage all the financial admin, but we never got round to sorting health, she had extreme paranoia and this took 3 years to convince her on the financial POA.
When I spoke to the surgeon after her last operation he strongly recommended no more medical procedures that aren’t pain relief, we agreed and he passed the paperwork to the nursing home. Despite no POA for health final decision for every urgent medical event, same with my Dad, it’s like others don’t want the final responsibility.

So I can imagine a Covid death not to be the best, my mother is in a care home and doesn't have the best quality of life, but when she is offered the vaccine, we are grateful.
Covid, pneumonia, that sort of thing is not something I would like her to catch. I appreciate with dementia and the suffering that comes with that, it is very hard, but on balance I am happy she is vaccinated and that's one less thing to concern ourselves with.
I just don't want her to feel pain and any more suffering than is needed.
Dementia and Alzheimers are terrible illnesses, but the thing I notice about my mum, is her total fear about what is happening to her. I would hate it if she was scared of not being able to breathe.

The nursing home staff (who regrettably are likely generally not to have significant ACTUAL MEDICAL QUALIFICATIONS) cannot assume consent for any medical procedures without POA which op says nobody has. Vaccination nurses should not be vaccinating ANYONE without consent - and if op says no, then the care home staff should not override this.

In a hospital or emergency setting, doctors and paramedics (all very highly trained, unlike the majority of care home staff) will act in the patient's best interest. They will be guided by op regarding decisions made about her mum's care but if they have already advised not to aggressively treat any further injections, I can't see any doctor overiding OPs wishes regarding an optional vaccine.

For the record I am fully vaccinated but have had COVID 3 times - I'm very pro-vaccine - but there comes a point where it might be kinder (if more awful in the short term) rather than have her mum's physical and mental health decline even further.

I agreed to a DNAR for my mum without POA - she was in ICU with sepsis - she had worsening Alzheimer's and stage 3 cancer (she hadn't been expected to die from the cancer itself anytime soon but developed sepsis after her first round of chemo - the doctor advised that outcomes after 'drastic measures' would be challenging at best so I agreed to DNAR without POA). It's so hard when a loved one is in this position. You have to do what is best for you OP.

I didn’t have health POA but regardless, the care home my mother was in always asked and carried out my wishes, as did the GP. I refused all vaccines for the last few years of mum’s life and prayed that she would be released from the horrors of dementia.

Frankly, anyone at the point of having to live in a dementia care home isn’t going to have much of a quality of life (in my view) and it isn’t the worst thing if they’re carried off by a virus rather than having to suffer for years more.

I think you meant to say "your mum". The elderly lady has the right to dignity, rather than impersonal labelling. Even on the Internet.

Did an actual registered nurse say that to to you about her being immune now ?

Hopefully not, if so the manager needs to know and can then arrange awareness training.

As other PP said ask to see her care plan. She needs to be DNR.
There should be a ceiling of care , if the home can offer palliative care and she gets eg pneumonia, you must stress she shouldn’t be admitted to hospital, but kept comfortable in her own bed.
I’ve seen people die in ambulance corridors when they should never have been conveyed to hospital.

When my Dad was in his last phase of life, we decided together (Dad, his GP and I) to stop any vaccinations. And after a bad reaction to the Covid vaccine, I've decided to stop having any more myself (I'm 54). Given your DM's medical conditions, I wouldn't want her to have one either OP.

I would think the nursing home would have to get agreement to being exposed to covid for every resident either from the individual themselves or their carer in order to allow anyone not to vaccinate. If the vaccine was 100% accurate (i.e. people who had the vaccine could not get covid) then yes some could risk opting out, and others could take it, but the care home can't increase the chances of someone who really doesn't want to suffer from/die from covid, doing so just cause others decide to take the risk.

That couldn't apply. Or else a frail nursing home resident with full capacity who did not want to be vaccinated would be able to be held down and forcibly vaccinated. Which would be assault.

We don't live in a totalitarian state. Consent is required if people have capacity and if not from those with poa for them.

Yes, you can refuse. It's up to you to make the decision.

I was in the same position as you, I had financial POA but not health, and my mother was in a care home for many years. I was always asked for my permission as NOK for my mother's covid vaccinations, they sent a form for me to sign and reply yes/no. (I was also consulted about all her other health issues, in collaboration with the nursing home and medics.)

I completely agree with a lot of what you say OP, my mother had advanced dementia and she had no life. She was just existing.

But I said yes to the vaccinations because if she did get Covid and die I didn't want to be responsible for it.

In the end she caught a cold, got pneumonia, and died within hours of falling ill. She had a DNR and a PEACE plan and there was no question of her going to hospital, she died in her own bed in the care home.

Yes but no-where has to let someone live there if they are not suitable for that place. If someone moved into an elderly people's home and then experienced rapid dementia decline, at some point that home could tell them and their family they will have to move to a dementia unit because the original home can't provide the level of care they need. In the same way, a home could require their residents to have the covid vaccine and could refuse to allow someone to continue living there if they were putting others at risk of a disease that could kill them.

You are conflating two separate issues.

If you know that Covid can cause a horrible death why wouldn't you vaccinate?
That is so different from a DNR in my view.
My mother gets terrified about things she doesn't understand. If she had difficulty breathing that would be terrifying for her.Plus if she had covid, then she could transmit that to the rest of the care home.
If she had a stroke and was on life support of course that is a different matter.

Deputyship orders for H & W are very, very rarely awarded, and only in extreme cases. OP won’t get one for her mother. A H & W LPA should have been made upon initial diagnosis (preferably before!) when her mother would still have awareness of what she was doing/signing.

The vaccine doesn't prevent COVID for your Mum or for other residents, not sure what some comments mean above..
My Mum ( before dementia) refused every vaccine opportunity and we have recently declined an offered booster .
We have medical POA.

YABVU putting aside the fact you would rather she went sooner than later, if she gets covid it might spread happily around the nursing home putting the residents and staff at risk

I guess I could be classed as an anti vaxxer, vaccine damaged in 2003 and carry the MTHFR gene meaning I don’t detox well but still signed the form to have Mum vaccinated in her care home, it seemed like the responsible thing to do for others residents and vulnerable staff.

I don’t for one minute think it will stop her catching covid so it seems a little pointless.