Not having the children overnight.

[Daddelion]

I suppose this is another thread that will be largely anonymous.

After reading a few threads on here, why is it ok for a father to not have overnights with his children after separation but the mother couldn't cope with being apart from their children so access must be brought in gradually?

If that makes sense.

I don't think fathers miss their children any less.

I have had numerous clients who insist that their new partner is involved in contact from the word go, even if this is the person they had an affair with. Then they act all martyred if this proves difficult for the other parent to accept. Interestingly this does happen more with fathers and new girlfriends, at least in my experience.

Everyone needs to be much more sensitive, not stomping around demanding their 'rights'.

Ending a relationship is often very painful for all. If someone is behaving badly this might be a symptom of their pain, not simply that they are dyed in wool bastard/bitch. But I guess it is always easier to blame someone else than hold yourself to account.

'You want to waste time polarising the debate into Men Good, Woman Bad, knock yourself out.

People can be foul. It is not a gender issue.'

I've no idea what you're talking about, I've never said men good, women bad.

I made a comment that I think is true in Dadsnet.

And personally I think arguing on Internet forums is a total waste of time, but sometimes I have time to waste.

Daddelion in sure you're well aware that mn is not representative. It's a forum used predominantly by women for a start. Also people in happier relationships don't need to vent on a forum.
Posters chewing out awful partners has nothing to do with contact issues.

Sorry if I have misinterpreted your stance.

Arguing on Internet always waste of time, albeit sometimes fun.

But exchanging views and experiences, always worthwhile, especially if it makes someone stop and think even just a little. I think someof my clients just have no idea about the hurt and damage they cause by the way they chose to end their relationship and then the way they chose to 'fight' over contact thereafter.

I make a plea for less talk of rights and more recognition of responsibilities. I think a lot of people have given very cogent reasons why contact might have to progress more slowly than the non residentparent would like.

have they made they men they way they are

This is not possible, you cannot morph men into being a certain way ime and imo! Right up their in Fairytale land tbh!

Gay40 my exp wasn't a wanker till we had our 2nd child. I never had a crystal ball. If it makes you feel better I spend everyday feeling like shit cos I never predicted the future accurately.

A man can be a shite husband and a great dad. Similarly a woman can be a great mother and a shite wife. I think people often forget this.

Depends what you mean by 'shite'. If that includes being violent, abusive, contemptuous or dismissive towards the other parent then I feel very strongly that you cannot call yourself a good parent, no matter how brilliant you are in other areas. You are teaching your children some horrible behaviours/attitudes if you do that.

I think that if the mother has been the main career and the father moves out then it is a lot to expect of the children that they immediately accept a new situation at home, new situation in their relationship with parents, new house that dad is in ALL at once, so even for older children a gradual build up is important. It has nothing to do with how much the parents miss the kids.

If there is also an OW on the scene it can be ridiculous to expect kids to jump right into that situation and be happy.

Yes quite spero.
Gay40 the law recognises witnessing abuse in the way it recognises receiving abuse.

They could poison her tea and put ants in her bed I suppose and be sick all over her sexy nightie at 5am....

When both parents work fullt ime I don't see why fathers should not be forced to have the children 50% of thje time whether they like it or not.

In fact the fathers on here can answer me this - which of these reasons do you think is the one why so very many fathers choose to have no or very little to contact out of choice after divorce?

1. They are too lazy
2. They have a new woman which is more fun a way to spend time than wiping toddlers' bottoms.
3. Their precious little feelings are hurt and they cannot cope

4,. They feel useless

1. It costs money
2. They want to inconvenience the other parent?

Some other reason?

In my experience, both personal and professional it is very often 1 and 2, but I think all can apply.

blue the difference between a mother with a newborn, and a "handsoff" uninterested father having a baby alone is that the mother is most likely going to be doing everything she can to look after that baby, having just carried it for 9 months and given birth, whereas the dad has already shown a lack of interest and care by being unbothered until they split, and then suddenly being desperate to play daddy. Seems more of a control thing in that situation than caring about the child IMO.

Obviously if a dad has been caring and involved, and the child is used to being settled by him equally at nights, then overnights should be introduced once the child has had a couple of visits to the new home to get used to it.

I used to be the one who did the feeds, changed my son's nappy and comforted him from birth through the night until his mother abducted him from his home without warning in the day while I worked.

After the court fight he was forced to see me in a contact centre because his mum wouldn't agree to anything else. I always remember the words out of the contact centre worker's mouth when I went to change his nappy:

`Do you think it's appropriate you do that?'

Despite having done nothing I felt like a child abuser.

There are just so many different variables. Like others have said, there are awful NRPs and awful RPs. There may be really valid reasons for children not going overnight, or absolutely no reason whatsoever. There may be step-parents involved anad having an influence - there was a thread the other day asking if it was necessary that step-children stayed overnight.

I love Xenia's post, I'd like to know what the answer is too! I offered 50:50 when I left, xh refused it. He could have loads of contact in the holidays, he never asks or says he can't.

I think some fathers miss their children as much as the mothers do, I also think there are some fathers who don't. DD's dad doesn't even bother to ring her between seeing her.

Each situation is completely different and it is very important for the child to have a relationship with the nrp but it can be very hard sometimes. my dd is 7 and it is hit and miss as to when she sees Dad, his choice as I am continually trying to get him to see her regularly. He hasn't had her overnight in 18 months which is again his choice, I am happy for him to have her overnight. He is a man that wants the fun side of parenting without everything else and on his terms.
This is why I think this depends on the situation and the people involved.

Loving Xenia's post.

Oh so true

Daddelion writes this:

"I'd say MN has a plethora of threads and posts by women complaining about men, have they made the men into the way they are?"

Terrible punctuation.

Of course children shouldn't have to take time getting familiarised with their father under normal circumstances.

Some women really do hate men in the same way some men really do hate women...courts should be set up to see this sooner and do something about it because it should be about the childs needs first and foremost.

When children become pawns the law needs to step in!

Breastfeeding aside men and women are equally equipped to care for children of any age.

A lot of people reply on the small children need their mother' or women carry a child inside them for 9 months' trope which really has no basis on reality on other than their personal opinion or if they are using a legal basis the 1839 Custody of Infants Act in which a mother could petition a court for sole custody of her children up to the age of 7 - in short a legal enshrinement of the `Tender Years Doctrine'.

A good question to ask is why separation of parents has any bearing on their ability to parent? I have seen numerous occasions of good parents who cared overnight (with the blessing of the other parent) for children who are then subjected to CAFCASS and social services reports following separation.

Spero

"BUT - men who complain about what a bitch their ex is - ever examine your own behaviour to see if there just might be a few teeny things about it that contributed to her being such a bitch?"

Do you include DV and DA in that?
if you are its a very fine line to tread

Of course contact denial of children or threatening to do so is recognised as a form of domestic abuse of an ex-partner as well as being child abuse.

Ironically the Women's Aid website lists this as a form of abuse.