Feminism

[slightreturn]

Please feel free to express your views honestly re; Feninism.
What to men really think about it?

I think this thing of telling women they shouldn't focus on the problems in their own countries is doing two things:

1. the usual thing of telling women that we are selfish bitches for putting our needs above anyone else's - we're supposed to put everyone else first, worry about everyone else and then only when everyone else is sorted, then we can serve ourselves

1. It's very comforting to think that we don't really have anything to worry about in our countries. Focusing on how dreadful things are for women in other parts of the world, means we don't have to face up to the fact that some things are really fucking awful for women here. Obviously not as awful as Afghanistan etc., but let's not pretend it's not fucking awful to not feel physically safe, to have to fight to have our voices heard and to be taken seriously, to have to be nice and flirty and placating to men when we're arguing our case and they're patronising us because otherwise they'll stop listening and write us off as bitter harridans, and all the rest of it. If we can go into denial about the things that are bad here and get worked up about things that are happening to "other" women elsewhere, we can achieve emotional distance from injustice, which is always more comfortable than being emotionally involved, isn't it? It's very tempting to do that, I can see why lots of people want to. I want to do it myself this morning.

Snorbs - yes I def. get this:

"I think the point I was struggling towards is that the fact that the people who predominantly do this are men, and the fact that I'm a man, does not mean that I should feel guilt by association for that coincidence."

I think it quite a complex point you make, and pivots around notion of rsponsibility. Of course we are not responsible for individuals actions, unless we provided some kind of encouragement etc.

A feminist position could well be that we as males have a kind of responsibility to try to ensure those actions are not repeated, and one does this by taking action to challenge and reduce to incidence of female oppression. (This isn't specifically a position held by women in the feminist movement only, but a civilised thing to be doing in any event. As you know.) The 'resonsibility lies with us, so the position goes as I understand it, because we have access to the circumstances where oppression is generated and can indeed as you self-describe actively 'role-model' to people around us, adults and children.

So I am sure the "guilt by association" thing - which used to bug me A LOT years ago more accurately refers to 'so what are you, as a man, going to do about it?'.

I think.
All pretty cut down version.

(Sprogger - bit curious about 'man like Pan'.)

HerBeatitude, that's lots of food for thought re misogyny. Thanks!

I think I can see what you mean by the unmundigkeit thing. It's a useful word. It's what was parodied in that Harry Enfield "Women, Know Your Place" sketch, isn't it? And also analogous to how black people were often viewed in apartheid South Africa etc of course. Slightly sub-human.

And I agree that such a viewpoint is at the root of an awful lot of sexism which, in turn, causes sexual discrimination. That's not what I have generally seen misogyny as, though. To me, misogyny has always been more an active antipathy to women.

I think it's because "misogyny" is linked so closely to "hate". Hatred is such a powerful and intense emotion I couldn't match that with the more (seemingly) dismissive and unthinking unmundigkeit. Hatred is an active thing, viewing women as not quite as much an adult human as men seems more of a passive, unthinking habitual thing.

To make a comparison, I'd say that an unmundigkeit viewpoint in racist terms would be the kind of person who habitually overlooks black or asian people for promotion and who would whinge in the pub about all those Poles coming over here but would still employ a Polish plumber. Racist? Well yes, undoubtedly, but in an unthinking habitual way.

But people such as this would never think of getting an NF tattoo and going out and beating up a black person simply for them being black. It's that kind of viewpoint, the active hatred, that I associate with misogyny as distinct from sexism.

ta - fine, thought it was - just curious in case it was something other.
Tricky isn't it when folks are far away from something that anything even approximately 'near' to it gets viewed as part of it.

and I guess, fail to detect finer points of differentiation within 'it'.

BeenBeta wrote - "In common with other posters I find Feminism means different things to different people. To me it is an artifical construct, because in a civilised society everyone should have equal rights."

I don't understand what you mean by an "artificial construct".

Do you mean "feminism is unnecessary because in an ideal world, everyone should have equal rights"?

Feminism is trying to achieve equality, that does not exist at the moment. Something (feminism) had to be constructed to do this, because I think it hasn't happened and won't happen without it. If everyone did indeed have equality there would be no need for feminism, but we are still a long way from that goal.

Feminism is a strange phenomenon. It seems to mean so many different things to so many different people.

I suppose that is almost inevitable because feminism deals with such contentious issues such as equality, justice, respect, decency, empathy and truth, which all seem to be in the eye of the beholder.

HerBeatitude wrote - "That's what I meant about feminism being the idea that women are fully human, which seems obvious but in practice isn't. A German feminist of the 19c described it as "unmundigkeit" - which sort of translates as immaturity, or unripeness or stunted. In other words, man has been taken as the measure of all things and women are a bit of an afterthought, not quite chidlren, but not as authoritative and grown up as the men."

Unmündigkeit is also a current legal term in German, meaning a minor, as in a child, or adult with dementia. Basically, someone who is seen as not being capable of making their own decisions in law.

I left this thread for exactly the reason I stated and no other. I am posting this simply as it appears a clarification is required for certain people.

I saw that too and commented on it. I don't see why the "misandry" of his comment has any relation to what he's got in his pants. Either it is or it isn't. Was stupidly shocked that the ridiculous accusation was rescinded. Because he's a man, his comment stops being hate-filled and instead transforms into an incisive comment on the situation in hand?

that was WRT retiredgoth on the other thread BTW.

Every time I see the word "misandry" used as if it were a real thing, I know I'm going to read something that comes from a certain viewpoint.

I want to start a thread on it but not sure I've got enough lives to get through to level 10. It might ask:

Can you name some famous victims of misandry?

Can you explain in a nutshell how misandry impacts men on a day-to-day basis?

Can you explain why the massively male-dominated governments, businesses and financial institutions of the world allow this misandry to continue (discriminating against
themselves in the process I presume)?

Can you name some women who are famous misandrists, and give examples of statements that indicate this? (in context please)

Why would it not be a real thing? it means the hatred or contempt for males i am pretty sure there are people who hate men.

Don't see why you need a famous person for it to exist.

Well Saltatric I have a great deal of cynicism about it because the term was coined by some pretty nasty Men's Rights groups, as a way of fighting back against allegations of misogyny (dittany has linked above).

A suspicion that some people hate men is all very well, but I can list countless examples of misogynists who have made their feelings about women very clear over the centuries. If there were a couple of examples of "misandists" it would illustrate for me why "misandry" is a real problem that I should care about, and not a hypothetical possibility that I can happily ignore.

Saltatrix sorry

Ah well I certainly would not say misandry is on the same scale as misogyny. Both exists but I think misogyny is certainly more pervasive.

Np about the name

Saltatrix wrote about misandry - "Don't see why you need a famous person for it to exist."

Let's lower the bar then. How about some examples by anybody?