Feminism

[slightreturn]

Please feel free to express your views honestly re; Feninism.
What to men really think about it?

And Annie, would you say the same to disability rights activists? That they run the risk of leaving (say) gay people behind?

I'm not saying that in all cases we should look at the grander picture, and some issues are strictly about women and women alone. But I mean in cases like the middle east, where women are often horribly oppressed and have no rights. We often hear about honour killings etc - the focus is very much on how women in these places suffer. But what about gay men? The disabled? They are in just as bad a position but never get mentioned. Surely if you're tackling improving the lot of women there, it makes sense to help other oppressed groups at the same time.

SGM - I so agree about the issues facing men today; that's why I prefer not to look just at women, but to try to consider gender issues.

Well, women are 50% of the population. It's surely not a bad place to start?

IT's relevanto the notion that "to educate a man, you educate a man. To educate a woman, you educate a nation."
Now that could be seen as 1. Patronising, or 2. leveraging too much responsibility on women.
Either way, it is true that the spread of energy and ideas is MUCH more effctive with young people ( they netowrk much better than older people) or females ( they have more enduring effects on ideas if they are allowed to). As I think SGM implies. The illustrative point/comparison is that older men tend to not share ideas, esp. if these are not consistent with their own short term interests.

So basically Annie, you're saying there shouldn't be any such thing as feminism?

Women should campaign for everyone else's rights before their own?

I disagree that feminists say women need help. What we are saying, is that we want to change society so that women's humanity is valued as much as that of men and then they won't need any "help". Society will allow them to function as fully as it currently allows men to (and yes, i know that's not as fully for some men as it ought to be, we can tackle that together at the same time - not before - we tackle our own fight for full adult human status.

I'm not saying that feminism doesn't have a place. But I'm saying that perhaps there are other groups that could do with help before Western women.

And while women in other parts of the world need help, so does anyone who is basically not a healthy, heterosexual adult male. Habbibu makes the point then women make up half the population. But when you add the other oppressed people of developing nations, you come to way more than half. So it's not feminism they need, these women, children, disabled and homosexuals. It's basic human rights.

I'm losing my focus here, you're all pulling me off at a tangent, which is fine, but I may not be able to express myself on the fly as well as I'd like.

I just don't see feminism to be as important in the grand scheme of things as some of you. Of course I don't think women should just suck up the inequalities that remain in our society in order to charge off and help the rest of the world. I do, however, think that some of you could do with broadening your viewpoint a bit, and perhaps look at who else might be sitting there, right next to the women you're trying to help, needing your help just as much, and only the smallest detour from your present path could encompass them too.

Apologies to the dads for the hijack, by the way!

Annie - there is no hijack going on. IT's a thread like any other.

It may not have struck you, but...you have identified yourself as def. not a feminist, yet..you appear comfortable about advising the direction feminist women should take.

Pam - just giving my opinion, and making a suggestion that while on your chosen mission, perhaps keep an open mind as to who you might be able to help on the way.

It's not so much feeling comfortable advising you, as being comfortable in my own views and the expression of them. You, of course, are free to ignore me, and I won't take the slightest offence.

ok. I am sure feminists over the world have already given that some thought.

Good, pleased to hear it!

People always have all my good ideas before me.

"So it's not feminism they need, these women, children, disabled and homosexuals. It's basic human rights."

Feminism is about human rights. For half of humanity. That's a pretty big percentage.

You seem to be under the impression that feminists aren't invovled in any other political movements. But we're women, we can multi-task!

Like I said Pan, dittany, just voicing an opinion. And I was going to make a point to thank you folks for a reasoned debate, but now the posts seem to be taking a bit of an unpleasant turn, so I will be taking my leave. See ya!

"I prefer not to look just at women, but to try to consider gender issues." That's terrific, but the ability to even consider, even really think about gender issues has come about through feminist scholarship and the deconstruction of traditional notions of "man" and "woman" that has followed, I think.

It's a weeny bit patronising to assume that feminists only want to help women and don't care about gay men and other oppressed groups. Shakesville for example is probably one of the most popular feminist sites that I visit, and it devotes a lot of space to gay rights issues, disability rights etc etc, maybe have a look?

That isn't supposed to be unpleasant by the way, just interesting.

Sorry you feel that way. It's just that its always preferable to have an attachment at least to any issue before advising the 'practitioners' what to do. But yes of course you are indeed entitled to an opinion.

No, I get that Elephants, and I appreciate it.

I have heard on the MN grapevine that the feminism boards tend to crap all over anyone who dares to voice a different opinion, and I was feeling pleasantly surprised by how civil this discussion had been until Pan and dittany started to accuse me of telling all feminists how to conduct themselves in less than pleasant tones of text. So enough from me, I don't want to get into a bunfight.

Sorry, not rising to it, seriously.

Well I don't think dittany or I did that in an unpleasant way. And yes this thread has been really gud. Try to stick around?