Feminism

[slightreturn]

Please feel free to express your views honestly re; Feninism.
What to men really think about it?

Well I'm not going to get into a silly (:o) bickering match with larrygrylls, this is too interesting a thread to spoil. Your argument was IMO silly, to say that your issue with "modern feminism" only works if you disregard the need for feminism in all other countries.

It's not anti-man, it's not misandry, it's not even anti-larry. So put that straw back where you found it please.

I was asking a different question.

Elephants/sethstark - sorry but the 'straw feminists' do exist as an extreme minority. Mainstream feminism does need to kick them out to make progress. They are divisive and a lot of women dont like/agree with them either.

StayFrosty - I work for myself now but when I was younger I did sometimes challenge my managers who said things about my female colleagues that were unfair. I quickly learned that we are not going to change the grown men who are misogynists/sexists. They will always be like that. One of my managers once left a hardcore porn magazine on my desk so my female coleagues would find it.

There is better mileage in working on our DSs and to return to Elephant's point - yes fathers and mothers have an equal responsibility. I think I said fathers had a role to play as well as mothers.

larry, while men dominate govt, higher echelons of civil service, academia and business, hugely outnumbering women, while magazines like Nuts and Loaded are normalised, while women are still told that they way they dress makes them responsible in part for being raped, then oh yes, the UK in 2010 is still a patriarchy.

I'm not sure how you can ever expect most men to ever be or relate to feminism much. Because Feminism works for women and well men are not women and men also have their own issues which affect them. And if men say anything about their own problems well they get that 'what about the menz' response which is patronising and rude. It puts off many guys and clearly shows that feminism has no interest in male problems.

Most guys i know would say they are interested in equality but they certainly would not say they are feminist's.

Elephants' quote again:
'The typical straw feminist promotes radical ideas: she says that all men are evil, advocates castration for rapists, and makes inflammatory statements which are more representative of the fringe of the feminist movement than of mainstream feminist. She is the ?fat, man-hating lesbian? who inhabits the nightmares of conservative commentators, embodying every imaginable stereotype about the feminist movement. The form of feminist represented by the straw feminist is shrill, strident, and often lacking in logic, in sharp contrast with the thoughtful, outspoken, and often very logical face of the feminist movement.'

BeenBeta, please please tell me where you have seen feminists saying all men are evil or advocating castration for rapists. (I am prepared to believe the latter but have never seen it myself.)

Plus, even if we did find these people, how would we kick them out of feminism?! It isn't a membership organisation!

Wikipedia helpfully provides an example of a Straw Man (sexists!!!! )
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1.Person A has position X.
2.Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
1.Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.[1]
2.Quoting an opponent's words out of context ? i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining).[2]
3.Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments ? thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
4.Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5.Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
3.Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

-Example-
Straw man arguments often arise in public debates such as a (hypothetical) prohibition debate:

Person A: We should liberalize the laws on beer.
Person B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.
The proposal was to relax laws on beer. Person B has exaggerated this to a position harder to defend, ie, "unrestricted access to intoxicants"

sorry that come out a bit weird:

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1.Person A has position X.
2.Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including: (see list 1-5 above)

3.Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

sethstark - I have never seen feminists advocating castration for rapists. I didnt say I had.

However, on a recent thread in Feminism it was advocated that all men should have their names made public as soon as they were accused of rape and then that the standard of proof in rape cases should be changed so accused men had to 'prove they were innocent'. The 'straw femimist' logic of the thread (not all female posters agreed) was that most men accused of rape are really guilty anyway and those that are not convicted should have been. I objected strongly to that because it was an example of feminists advocating policy that basically labelled all men as guilty of rape on the mere say-so of a woman.

StayFrosty - I'm just saying that there is more mileage in moulding the opinions of boys/teenage men than adult men. Just my RL experience thats all.

I think views can be prevalent in either sex i have seen women be highly disparaging of other women. If you want to tackle a problem you need to hit it on all sides otherwise it will never be solved.

let's see, BeenBeta - link?

It is my understanding that people's names are made public as soon as they are charged. Someone wanted publicity at the point of arrest? Before arrest?

'However, on a recent thread in Feminism it was advocated that all men should have their names made public as soon as they were accused of rape and then that the standard of proof in rape cases should be changed so accused men had to 'prove they were innocent''

You know what, I think I do remember someone saying something like that. And no-one, radical feminists included, agreed with them. And IIRC it wasn't a name I recognised as a regular feminist poster or someone who was a super-radical-more-feminist-than-the-feminists, it was someone who had apparently just not thought the issues through very much,

How on earth could feminists enforce a situation on a discussion board where no-one said anything daft? What more can we do, other than stating our disagreement?

I also don't believe for a moment that 'The 'straw femimist' logic of the thread (not all female posters agreed) was that most men accused of rape are really guilty anyway and those that are not convicted should have been.' - though am prepared to be convinced if you link people saying those things. What I suspect was said was that there will have been some men who weren't convicted who should have been and hence it is illogical to be certain that every man who is found not guilty of rape is actually innocent - although for any given man we cannot know purely based on the verdict whether he was or wasn't. Given that many guilty men do get off, that wouldn't be that controversial a statement.

BB - you can't kick people out from describing themselves as feminists. It's not a club. And I could equally assert that people like you who find certain feminist voices discomforting get over it, look at the bigger picture, and, decide what, within the part of your mind/time that you devote to thinking about feminist issues, is really worth debating.

Saltatrix, would you really expect a disabled rights activist to be focussed on the problems of the able-bodied?

And also - if I paraphrase:

I'm not sure how you can ever expect most white people to ever be or relate to anti-racism much. Because anti-racism works for black people and well white people are not black people and white people also have their own issues which affect them.

Would that thinking have ever brought about the end of apartheid? Special interest groups are just that, and they focus for a reason. Same way you don't expect the British Heart Foundation to focus on helping people with Alzheimers. It's about focus.

Actually , reading that back I'm not sure I want to describe feminism as a special interest group - the analogy roughly works, but isn't quite right.

"you can't kick people out from describing themselves as feminists. It's not a club. And I could equally assert that people like you who find certain feminist voices discomforting get over it, look at the bigger picture, and, decide what, within the part of your mind/time that you devote to thinking about feminist issues, is really worth debating."

I could NOT agree with this more.

Not singling anyone out, it applies to anyone!

Elephants/sethstark - I dont want to rake through old threads but that is my certain recollection and remember well my very strong feelings and the arguements I had with a good deal more than just one uber-feminist. I called it 'tilting the playing field' of proof.

StayFrosty - I do challenge it when I canN and I do my bit generally but I feel its there is not a lot more I can do. The 'straw feminists' dont do any good at all.

Incidentally, this now may be the longest thread ever seen on Dadsnet

BB are you trying to be funny about the straw feminists? It's as if I'd posted about chocolate teapots (famous for not existing) and you'd kept rambling on about how useless they are. :o

BB, that's so lazy. It really is. What on earth do the putative straw feminists have to do with stopping YOU doing what you can to end discrimination against women. That's a cop out, and one that makes me pretty angry, I have to say. What are you teaching your sons? That they have to do a bit to support women, but if they hear a minority of voices that make them uncomfortable, they should just back off?

I ask you the same question as I asked larry and UQD - would this kind of attitude have been right for whites to take during the civil rights movement and anti-apartheid struggle?

Anyway outside of the "straw feminists" (and you really should stop using that term, as it doesn't mean what you're using it to mean) - the question remains about what men think of feminism. Not certain feminists.

Habbibu - what would you like me to do?

I think feminism is a good thing.

Interesting Habbidu but anti-racism is not only for black people it is for the removal of racism against anyone although it will occur to black people and Asian people more where they are a minority.

However i don't think anti-racism is not a group per se most would say they are against racism.

Also feminism is not a specialist group it is large and to achieve their goals it would require massive changes to society something which affects everyone i believe men should be able to have input as they would also be affected by such changes as well.

do keep repeating it though. Specially in places where there are loads of people around who don't like it. Every little helps.

anti-racism is a group

Mistake there