Feminism

[slightreturn]

Please feel free to express your views honestly re; Feninism.
What to men really think about it?

Well, sorry about that and all, UQD, but since I'm not a misandrist either by design or by default, I can't answer that.

You're obviously having a bit of a slow brain day UQD, so I'll reiterate. Feminists are campaigning for things to be better for women. Women who express feminist views are obviously going to spend some time talking about sexism, abusive men etc because that is their battleground. That in no way makes them man-haters. Also if you only encounter someone in the context of a feminist discussion over the internet, you have no idea how she lives the rest of her life, how she interacts with men in discussions of other topics etc. Personally I wouldn't tell a man to sod off from a feminist topic, but if someone would that doesn't make her a misandrist. Has it ever occurred to you that the same person would tell a woman to sod off if she said what you have said? Does that make her a misogynist as well?

Not liking UQD is not equal to hating men, FYI.

sorry UQD, larrygrylls is winding me up, so please just concentrate on this section of my post: "Personally I wouldn't tell a man to sod off from a feminist topic, but if someone would that doesn't make her a misandrist. Has it ever occurred to you that the same person would tell a woman to sod off if she said what you have said? Does that make her a misogynist as well?"

Elephants - interesting point about 'straw feminists'.

I feel quite strongly that the small number of 'straw feminists' have hijacked feminism to its detrement. They are a minority but I think they are the reason why a significant number of women and perhaps an even more significant number of men reject feminism.

I have said on a few threads that feminism is a busted brand'. By that I dont mean that feminism doesnt need to exist - it does.

What I mean is that what the word 'feminsim' has come to mean because of 'straw feminists' has damaged the aim and message of feminsism. Perhaps thats why so many people now prefer to talk about equality and rights and fairness rather than talk about feminism.

On the issue of whether a man can be a misogynist if he loves a woman/women - yes he can. Having sat on trading floor in the City and spent time in locker rooms and pubs and just about every other place with groups of men I can say for sure that men with wives and DDs can and do say utterly unimaginably vile things about women. Sexism and misogyny is alive and well.

I dont think adopting the tactics and language of 'straw feminists' is the way to beat it though.

Most women don't adopt those tactics, though.
What do you think is the best way to change things BB? (genuine question)

Sorry BB I think you have the wrong idea - a straw feminist is made up, taking elements of real feminists and fake ones (our pal Millie Tant for example) and weaving them altogether into a hotchpotch of man-hating, misandric, dungaree-wearing, head-shaving, castrating, women-only-commune-dwelling, female supremacists.

They don't exist though. Maybe a very small number of women had one or more of these features at some point. But come to me with some examples please of who these few are who are spoiling things for the rest of the class.

BB are you missing the point about straw feminists?
the point is they don't really exist - to repost a bit of Elephant's post:

'A straw feminist is the feminist version of the infamous straw man. A straw man is a person who is invented to prop up a point, usually by pulling together threads of the other side's arguments and beliefs, and by misrepresenting statements made by the other side. Often, a straw man is specifically designed to be easily attacked, with the creator leaving gaps in the fictional creation's logic which can be assaulted with ease, thereby ?disproving? the points made by the other side.'

sorry, x-post

Stewie,

What "crack" about men's desires. I assume that you think I was referring to sexual desires. I was not. I was using it in its normal meaning (desire=want). Sign of someone looking for a reason to attack. I meant that a balance has to be found in society between men and women where both are comfortable.

Sprogger posted an axiom which I questioned. That is my prerogative. And it is a fair question that, if an axiom of feminism is that we live in a patriarchal society, at what point does one question the axiom? It is more what this thread was intended to be about, reading the original post, than a lot of what is currently being posted.

UnePrune - I agree the vast majority of women dont adopt those tactics.

I should also say that the vast majority of men do not say/think vile things about women. However, all men (yes including me) at some level have prejudices about women. We need to work on that set of prejudices.

Rather than make it abstract. I suppose I should say what I can do. The most important thing I think is make sure my two DSs have good values and instill in them the right attitudes to women/girls. I hope fathers with DDs will also instill in them a self worth and knowledge of what being loved by a man is and what she should expect from him.

Mothers have an equally important role. Every misogynist/sexist man has a mother. What influence did/should she have in forming his attitudes?

Exactly - it's an analogy with the "straw man argument", BB.

I think you could probably be very fond of a woman if you were a misogynist - but to genuinely love her? No, well, at least in my definition of love, you couldn't. Because there would always be a part of you that would think she was a lesser being to you. And that's not love between humans in my book.

If you mean love as in the way you love a dog or a horse, however...

The same as what you're doing, I'd say. At the moment people still feel able to say "I blame his mother" for any minor/major misdemeanor a man commits. Not the father for some reason, why do you think that is?

I agree, SF.

And when there's a campaign that aims to progress things for girls/women (such as the MN soft-porn-mag campaign that was suggested, removing mags from child's eye-height), maybe think about standing up and saying yeah, I agree.

Because if you're a man, you have more power with this stuff.

If you're a man, you would probably make the news for saying that Loaded/Nuts etc should be sold wrapped up.

Women doing the same - bitter and jealous, apparently. :(

"Every misogynist/sexist man has a mother. What influence did/should she have in forming his attitudes?" Perhaps she didn't fight back when the father belittled her? Perhaps she said "oh, I'm not a feminist. they're all man-haters"? Perhaps she failed to duck when the father's fist came towards her?

And larry - one of the big points about feminism is that it's not just about working for the rights of women in this society. It's about the global rights of women. And you really do not want to get into a stats fight about rape on that scale.

Oh, God yy to the whole Nuts/Loaded thing.

Habbibu,

Please read my first post on this subject where I qualified all my reservations about modern feminism by saying that they only applied to the UK in 2010 and I fully accepted that things were VERY different globally.

but that's silly larry and won't do as an excuse. That's like saying because there are no earthquakes in this country, I am against earthquake relief efforts. Oh, worldwide you say?

Elephants,

I am tired of your didactic statements. You are not actually my teacher. I would be accused of misogyny if I called anyone a "silly" woman but you do it to men ceaselessly when you disagree with them.

I am not either for or against "feminism". It means different things to different people. I am for equality and fairness (as I always said). This allows me to say intellectually that I no longer see the UK as a patriarchy but I do see a problem globally. There is nothing inconsistent in what I say. It also means that there are different solutions depending on locality.
Against earthquake relief? I am very much for concentrating earthquake relief in areas where there are active faults.

She didn't call you a silly man - she called your argument silly. She's not calling all men silly.

From the rape crisis website

It's much more common than people think.

Around 21% of girls and 11% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse. 23% of women and 3% of men experience sexual assault as an adult. 5% of women and 0.4% of men experience rape. (Cross Government Action Plan on Sexual Violence and Abuse www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/ Sexual-violence-action-plan)

It represents a form of gender inequality.

Most perpetrators are male and most victims are female. It is both a consequence and cause of gender inequality.

It causes fear in communities.

Women are more worried about rape than any other crime

It can cause severe and long lasting harm to victims.

Direct physical health consequences of sexual violence and child sexual abuse include physical injury, sexually transmitted infections and unwanted pregnancy. Long-term consequences of sexual violence and child sexual abuse include post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety and panic attacks, depression, social phobia, substance abuse, obesity, eating disorders, self harm and suicide, domestic violence and in some cases, offending behaviour. Child abuse can also impact on educational attainment and school attendance.

...and to society.

The overall cost to society of sexual offences in 2003-04 was estimated at £8.5 billion, with each rape costing over £76,000. Much of this cost is made up of lost output and costs to the health service resulting from long term health issues faced by victims.

Victims don't always get the support they need.

40% of adults who are raped tell no one about it. 31% of children who are abused reach adulthood without having disclosed their abuse. This means that victims don't get the support they need to deal with the abuse or violence they have experienced.

It is an important and dangerous element of domestic violence.

Many people believe that adult sexual violence and child sexual abuse is normally committed by a stranger. In fact, perpetrators are normally known to the victim and many are partners or family members. Rape is associated with the most severe cases of domestic violence, and is a risk factor for domestic homicide.

Offenders have been getting away with it..

Only 15% of serious sexual offences against people 16 and over are reported to the police and

of the rape offences that are reported, fewer than 6% result in an offender being convicted of this offence. This means that those who commit these very serious crimes may continue to pose a risk to the public.

"This allows me to say intellectually that I no longer see the UK as a patriarchy"
larry - with linden's post in mind, do you accept that women are a target of sexual abuse and DV more than men?

MsRisotto,

She didactically rubbished a perfectly rational argument, albeit one people can disagree with. Her tone was autocratic "won't do". It is clearly condescending, especially the weird face at the end.

The main thing is that there is no effort to engage on an intellectual level and it just becomes an ad hominem attack, as did the previous poster who said "Larry is winding me up".