Feminism

[slightreturn]

Please feel free to express your views honestly re; Feninism.
What to men really think about it?

Hope you don't mind me butting in.

To me, Feminism shouldn't have to exist as a movement. Men and women should be treated equally as a given.

What concerns me is that there is any opposition AT ALL to the simple assertion that women should be equal to men. Why is that?

I suppose it's ignorant fear. Fear of what? Losing our place in control of society? If everyone is equal, those in control would be there through merit, surely?

I despair at the mindsets of men who oppose equality (feminism). They must hate women deeply, I pity them if they have daughters and mothers and wives. Oh.

yes, can i tempt you with a t-shirt BB?

(FWIW BeenBeta and mildly disturbed at my poor recall, I check back through the anonymity thread - the only person I can find suggesting that people acused of rape prove their innocence is you :o :

BeenBeta Mon 24-May-10 12:26:25
...I agree the investigation process is unfair to women and the anonimity of women in rape trials is something I fully support. However, denying that same anonimity to the man is a worrying example of what I call 'tilting the playing field' at the trial.

It is a slippery slope. Where does the tilting stop? Should we tilt it further by saying that men should have to prove their innocence rather than women provide enough evidence to convince a jury of guilt. More conviction would be secured for sure. More wrongful convictions too.

Our justice system does not work that way. That is the only point I am making about the 'tilting' issue.

BeenBeta wrote - "I dont want to rake through old threads but that is my certain recollection and remember well my very strong feelings and the arguements I had with a good deal more than just one uber-feminist. I called it 'tilting the playing field' of proof."

I found your comments and re-read that part of that thread. The comments by both you and your "opponents" surrounding what you described as "titling" came across to me as mild, much less passionate than what I've read on this thread.

Interesting post dittany, but i disagree that these views have been taken seriously. Or at least, they have been taken seriously for just as long as it takes to disagree with them. :o

It's nice to see Pan and techlovingdad etc come out of the woodwork as well. It makes me sad when men (especially those with female partners or children) sometimes seem to treat feminism/women's issues as a bit of fun, come on a thread to make a point or play devil's advocate, knowing they can just walk away and forget it when they get bored :( So it's nice to see some dads on here who are willing to say that these things matter.

Elephants - apologies for not coming back to you. I just dont wnat to cause a ruck by quoting opposing posts from other threads.

Right ho BB.

Well, I don't think it's been taken seriously in the sense of having been a valid proposition - viz the straw feminist discussion, but it has been engaged with in a fairly friendly fashion as this is a thread about men and their thoughts about feminism, and so the views are a valid topic for discussion, though the discussion is in part at least a debunking exercise.

My other thought on this is that some men will indeed say "blah blah man hater" and refuse to listen - I've been trying to engage with why, if the views and way of speaking of what the person/man accepts is a minority are not to your taste - I haven't said wrong - one might choose to back away from identifying with feminism. Because that's mad. And if we can get people to see that, to calm down, to get over being so damn defensive, then maybe they'll actually start hearing what's really been said - even - especially - by their former nemeses.

Maybe that's naive. i don't know. But it's how I tend to think.

Agree that hearing from Pan and tld has been good. But have really enjoyed talking with the women on this thread - it's been v thought provoking.

I think there's a lot of "if you're not coming across as completely with us you're against us" among men -- hence the 'feminism is a bit wanky' sort of remark. Too easy a cop out.

Why is it so hard to see there's plenty for everyone, and that what feminism offers is good for both men and women? In what other area of life is collaboration not automatically accepted as a good thing, even in the conduct of your personal life?

Why is the 'giving' of rights to one group seen as the taking of something from the other? Clearly what men are holding onto is valuable or feminism wouldn't be resisted so strongly.

mathanxiety wrote "Why is the 'giving' of rights to one group seen as the taking of something from the other? Clearly what men are holding onto is valuable or feminism wouldn't be resisted so strongly."

If men base their privilege on exclusive ownership of that privilege, feminists who want to share equality and therefore remove that male exclusivity will be viewed as a threat, even if equal rights are enjoyed by all.

It's the tone of excuses that is so nauseating.

Ok I will join in (by which I possibly mean just "stop slagging off") your struggle to end the oppression of these billions of people, with which I claim to sympathise, on condition that:

• nobody slags anyone else off, least of all me

• no-one must question my motives, even if I make comments that others find offensive

• I am allowed to constantly refer to imaginary "extremist" members of your struggling group, as if they were real and doing real damage, and aim vitriol at them

• no-one may take offence when I do this, because the vitriol was aimed at the mirage of "others"

• i am allowed to change the name of the movement

• all opinions are prefaced with "I think", direct statements render feminism inoperative.

There seems to be little awareness with some people that "joining feminism" is not something that should be done to reward us all for being good little girls, but because the cause in itself is worthwhile.

Dittany

Would you accept if i said feminism takes interest in women's issues and problems in society.

However would also accept there are problems which interest men in general and even further problems depending on their race, class upbringing (same for women).

So what would be wrong with a man who supports equality are they not supporting the cause even if they don't call themselves feminist (which is gender specific goal wise)

Have come back to find this has moved on. Well, I have made my contributions above. I hope some people found them helpful. For various reasons I am now no longer able to continue posting in what has actually been a pretty civilised thread. Sorry.

Well then many men are interested in equality (more than not) however feminism has attained an image of much negativity. Would it not benefit such a political movement to change that image, would it not be easier to change society if most people understood what it was and were in support of it?

Saltatrix, if you read the straw feminist posts above, you'll see that the negative image is due in no small part to the conscious effort of those opposed to the cause to smear it. Happens to all minority causes, i'll wager.

yes it is excellent. Prob. the most stimulating one I have been on for a very long time - dadsnet is on fire!!. And a tribute to us all.

I do struggle a bit with the academia of some of it - not coz I am fik, honest, but I tend to be a bit more 'interventionist' and look to 'make an immediate and demonstrable difference - in working life and personal life. So its been a real education to revisit and be up-dated on perspectives. Feminism arrivedd fully at my door with "Woman on the edge of time" ( early-mid 80's) and finding myself marching in London against the David Alton Bill on abortion.
And I do see why feminist, radical or not, would be sceptical of a man describing himself as a feminist. I too sneered at the age of the "New Man" about that time.

The bit about men not suffering injustice due to their gender I almost completely go along with. We DO have a different social pressure, being 'expected' to be 'alpha male', take charge, show you are 'strong', and all of that. Wneh frankly many of us couldn't give a toss about that.

Also, and crucially, we tend to die younger. Just not fair!!