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Feminism

503 replies

slightreturn · 17/08/2010 18:33

Please feel free to express your views honestly re; Feninism.
What to men really think about it?

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 12:46

Shock at larrygrylls's assumption about UP's friends and their "amount of men and situations"!

Larry - I'll take your stat that 4% of men rape in any one year. You've left out other sexual assaults. You've also assumed that men who rape, do so every year (or are racked up by the statistics every year). Why?

Anyway, this is OT really.

larrygrylls · 09/09/2010 12:50

Elephants,

It is way OT.

I suspect that most rapists (like other criminals) are repeat offenders. And that most men who respect and love women one year are not going to turn into rapists the next.
Are we all Jeckyll and Hyde?!

Again, to you, what percentage of men are, in your opinion, rapists (in the very general sense of the word including sexual assaults)?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 12:57

How the bloody blazes am I supposed to know that, larry? What am I, the British Crime Survey?

What possible reason can you have for asking, other than to make a point that I or others have a Terrible Opinion of Men?

My point was that if you say 4% of men rape in any one year, that doesn't mean it's the same 4% every year. That's just common sense surely.

BB - ta for your nice post.

UnePrune · 09/09/2010 13:00

I called it disturbing because it disturbs me that someone who is clearly not thick can dissemble like that.

I say abuse, assault and rape and make no reference to whether or not it was reported, or a conviction sought (for the record, in most cases, no; I also can assume that I haven't heard most of my friends' experiences!). You respond with the official statistic for ONE of those - I assume the figure relates to convictions? - and use it to suggest that I've got it a little bit out of proportion. You know, I assume, about underreporting and the lamentable rate of conviction for rape. Therefore it's just spin on your part.

The sad thing is that between men, this sort of response works whereas women are left saying 'WHAT?! How can it not be staring you in the face?!'.

You ask me what proportion of men I think are capable of violence against women. Are you now including non-sexual assault? DV is a big problem...

The answer is, I don't know. As I said, about half of my friends have been subjected to some form of sexual assault. They come from a variety of backgrounds and locations; I have NEVER heard any of them talking about the same man. I would have to be stupid to think 'well it's just a couple of bad eggs', wouldn't I?

sprogger · 09/09/2010 13:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

larrygrylls · 09/09/2010 13:11

Uneprune,

I don't know.

My general point is that is unfair to extrapolate from "most dangerous people are men" to "most men are dangerous". Other people then brought statistics into the argument, albeit personalised ones.

There was an article in this week's Sunday Times about female domestic violence against men being quite common but not reported, as men are too embarrassed to do so.

My main point is that bad people are bad people, regardless of sex and in singling bad people out to make a general point about one sex, it greatly oversimplifies how men and women interact.

larrygrylls · 09/09/2010 13:18

Sprogger,

I get your point. However, it is an assumption that it is still present today in the UK. It is not a fact that can be baldly asserted.

And, if you believe it to be the case, at what point will you cease to believe it? What test will you apply to say: "OK, the patriarchy no longer exists" or, even, that it has tipped into a "matriarchy".

Men will never lose their testosterone and women will never be physically stronger (unless you really do want a society where we are all constantly flitting from sex to sex). And, as long as women have babies, some will genuinely choose to bring them up and remove themselves from the workplace (even without societal pressure).

Do you really want to change human nature or find a fair way to accommodate both women's and men's desires?

StayFrosty · 09/09/2010 13:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 13:24

lg -no-one has said that all or most men are bad, i would repeat the requests of plenty of other posters on this thread by saying - please show me where this has been said.

Let me highlight this interesting article:

"WHAT IS A STRAW FEMINIST?

A straw feminist is the feminist version of the infamous straw man. A straw man is a person who is invented to prop up a point, usually by pulling together threads of the other side's arguments and beliefs, and by misrepresenting statements made by the other side. Often, a straw man is specifically designed to be easily attacked, with the creator leaving gaps in the fictional creation's logic which can be assaulted with ease, thereby ?disproving? the points made by the other side.

In the sense of feminism, a straw feminist or strawfeminist is a fictional ?feminist? character who is used to make arguments about the feminist movement as a whole...
The typical straw feminist promotes radical ideas: she says that all men are evil, advocates castration for rapists, and makes inflammatory statements which are more representative of the fringe of the feminist movement than of mainstream feminist. She is the ?fat, man-hating lesbian? who inhabits the nightmares of conservative commentators, embodying every imaginable stereotype about the feminist movement. The form of feminist represented by the straw feminist is shrill, strident, and often lacking in logic, in sharp contrast with the thoughtful, outspoken, and often very logical face of the feminist movement.

Most feminists are simply trying to create equal rights for women, and to promote respect for women which protects them from de facto sexism as well as de jure issues. They want to see equal pay for equal work, for example, or crackdowns on harassment of women in the street, on public transit, and in the workplace. Real feminists come in a wide range of socioeconomic classes, shapes, sizes, and relationships, just like everyone else.

The straw feminist argument is extremely frustrating for many feminists, partly because many people buy into it. Some women who actually have very feminist ideas are reluctant to call themselves ?feminist? because of the negative perception of feminism, and criticisms of the feminist movement, even from informed people, often sound suspiciously like discussions of straw feminism. For example, many people claim that second wave feminism ?goes too far,? not realizing that bulk of second wave feminists focused on addressing de facto inequalities which plagued women, not on creating a ?womyns utopia? without any men."

Good to know what to call it next time I see it. If this is ringing a bell with anyone, perhaps you have woven one of these yourself at some point? The thing is, it holds back the positive changes for women (and thus people) around the world if these sterotypes are peddled. You wouldn't want to do that, would you?

UnePrune · 09/09/2010 13:25

My point, though, is that if you know that a higher proportion of men than is reported actually are dangerous, in various ways, and specifically towards women, then you cannot fail to be nonplussed when men get upset about women bringing it up!

It does not automatically follow that man=rapist. I don't meet a man and assume he has a dark past. But I DO get angry when the experiences of women I know are downplayed, brushed off, talked around and discounted.

Of course personal anecdotal evidence is not a substitute for good statistical evidence. On this point, it is impossible to collect meaningful statistics because of underreporting. However it seems that even communicating our knowledge of what happens to the women we know is seen as suspicious. It isn't.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/09/2010 13:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sethstarkaddersmum · 09/09/2010 13:28

do you know Elephants, you've just given me a great idea for my entry in the village scarecrow competition next summer Smile

sorry....

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 13:30

Mm, one more thing and I hope this is the right place to talk about it. If you are wandering into a thread which is about some violent situation where women are the victims (e.g. an account of a DV or rape case), it is not your job or responsibility as a man to either "provide balance" or "play devil's advocate". It really is ok to be horrified, suggest actions or further reading, or just sympathise with the victim.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 13:30

SSM - forgiven as long as you post pictures!!

UnquietDad · 09/09/2010 13:33

To clarify, then, some people think one can genuinely love individual women and still be a misogynist. Can one therefore love individual men and still be a misandrist? If not, why not?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 13:33

lg - "Do you really want to change human nature or find a fair way to accommodate both women's and men's desires?" - you think that's a relevant appropriate comment in a part of the thread talking about rape, do you? Shock

How do you suggest we accommodate some men's desires to rape then? Or did you mean something else?

UnquietDad · 09/09/2010 13:36

Is feminism a means to an end? Is there a potential future society (utopian?) in which there would be no longer any "need" for it? And what criteria would be used to test this?

How would people who define as feminists feel about no longer "needing" to be one?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 13:36

Yet to see examples of misandrists UQD so it's all theoretical AFAIC.

If such made-up imaginary unicorn-riding misandrists were to exist, I would say yes they could love individual men. But I would say that the love of misogynists/"misandrists" for people of the relevant sex would be tainted. That's why you get so many sexist twats who compliment women by saying "you're just like one of the boys" or "you're not like other women" - they are justifying their affection by seeing their loved one as an exception.

UnquietDad · 09/09/2010 13:37

Why misandrist in inverted commas? I have encountered some on the feminism topic. Toxic ones. I won't name them because it is not fair to do so when they are not contributing to this thread.

UnePrune · 09/09/2010 13:39

Why don't you ask the misandrists you've identified whether or not they feel love for individual men?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/09/2010 13:40

I think it's a means to an end. That end IMO would be when the list of horrors I posted upthread ceases to exist, when no woman or girl is denied a chance or hurt of abused or assaulted or intimidated or enslaved or imprisoned or assaulted or killed or held back professionally because of her sex. And I think you'd have to be a pretty sick puppy to begrudge hanging up your dungarees if all that had been achieved.

I would also include when questions like "can a woman be a priest/president/astrophysicist?" become as unacceptable as asking "Should a black man do those things?"

TBH if we were at the point where sexism was as loathed and rejected as racism we would be getting somewhere.

UnquietDad · 09/09/2010 13:41

Because I have had it made clear to me in the feminism topic that my questions to those people are no longer welcome there. Sorry, I don't really want to get into personal exchanges with anyone or even talk about them.

UnePrune · 09/09/2010 13:43

The end of feminism would need an end to the current systems of economics, though, and replacement of them by something truly utopian.

larrygrylls · 09/09/2010 13:43

Elephants,

It is not a thread about rape, nor was the post I replied to in any way connected to rape.

This thread actually asked for men's opinion on feminism and I asked a pertinent question. Sorry, if you personally did not like it.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/09/2010 13:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.