Sonnets - abbaabba or what

[popsycal]

right - a quick question

i believed that sonnets had an abba abba abba cc pattern....

but just did a quick google to remind myself and lo and behold, there is a whole range of different rhyming patterns but not the one i thought!!!

am fine with the iambic pentameter malarky.....but rhyme?
Please help!!!

Oh, popsycal, just saw this by accident when I was heading to the father's day thread to say what great poems you all did, and to ask what the responses were from the fathers in question.

If you have an interest in sonnets, I'd recommend the Penguin Book of the Sonnet (ed Phillis Levin). There's a fascinating essay at the front describing the history of the sonnet, and the variations on rhyme schemeand you're right, there are loads. You're also right that your own rhyme scheme is sort of a conflation of two other "recognized" forms: the Petrachan sonnet and the Shakespearean/English sonnet. But in fact, the sonnet has evolved nowadays almost beyond recognition and your little invented scheme would probably be admired for its industriousness. That is, you're making life HARDER for yourself by sticking to a third abba instead of allowing yourself d's e's and even f'swhich would open up greater possibilities in word choice and therefore be easier to write.

These days, a lot of poets don't even bother with the iambic pentameter or the rhyme: the important thing is considered to be the 'turn' at the beginnng of the sestet (usually). OR, some people who do rely on rhyme tend to use "slant rhyme" as opposed to direct rhyme so you can hardly hear the similarity in sounds.

But to delineate the traditional forms for you (which you probably already found when you did your search):

Petrarchan:
abba abba cde cde

English/Shakespearan
abab cdcd efef gg

Spenserian
abab bcbc cdcd ee

Have you ever tried other forms, like the vilanelle and the sestina? If you like working in forms, you might like to try those too.

I think it's fantastic, by the way, that you're working with such a challenging form. That's really gutsy/admirable, popsycal! And the fact that you have iambic pentameter down pat is also really impressive (and rarer than you'd think!) I would not touch a sonnet with a ten foot pole except at a reader.

you are so very kind!!!

i guess that i did a shakepsearuian sonnet then!!

vilanelle and the sestina
never heard of them!?
please enlighten me as i will try anything!!!

Here's one of the most famous examples of the villanelle. See if you can figure out the pattern yourself because that's really the best way to learn it. I can help you later (but don't want to step on janstar's toes--she's a v. good teacher )

Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night
by Dylan Thomas

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Andsorry to be a bore!here's one I like better, a more conversational villanelle by American poet Elizabeth Bishop. Hers allows for more variation with the repeated lines.

One Art

The art of losing isn't hard to master;
so many things seem filled with the intent
to be lost that their loss is no disaster.

Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

Then practice losing farther, losing faster:
places, and names, and where it was you meant
to travel. None of these will bring disaster.

I lost my mother's watch. And look! my last, or
next-to-last, of three loved houses went.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

I lost two cities, lovely ones. And, vaster,
some realms I owned, two rivers, a continent.
I miss them, but it wasn't a disaster.

Even losing you (the joking voice, a gesture
I love) I shan't have lied. It's evident
the art of losing's not too hard to master
though it may look like (Write it!) like disaster.

aba
aba
aba
aba
aba
abaa

???

and ten syllables per line?

Yes. . .and what about repetition of full lines?

Oh yes! Just realised now!

repetition on lines 3, 9 and 15 and 18
and a differetn repetition on lines 6, 12 and sort of 19

oooh - I like this form....might be next project - all i need is some inspiration for a subject matter!
thanks kat

Right popsy. The variations on the repeated lines, especially in the Bishop poem, is sort of a "twist" on the original form. You can change the repeated lines slightly each time you use them, or not. I guess it's considered more "intersting" to change them a little, though a purist would keep them unchanged. Yes, you need a special kind of subject matter for the villanelle--something that asks for/requires repetition. Like the pleading nature of Thomas's poem, or the didactic nature of Bishop's. Good luck w/ your poem if you decide to write one.