Please come and talk to me. Just for some general writing chat and support...

[BiglyBadgers]

I am about a third of the way through editing my stupidly long book (this'll teach me for writing epic fantasy) and need some chat!

I really loved the chat and support on the nano thread, but now novel writing month is long gone and I am alone! There must be other people out there bumbling along needing a friend to chat to...surely....I can provide coffee, cake and excellent free WiFi

I've submitted a poem to a local competition. I've never submitted any writing to anything! I'm now terrified they might like it and I have to go and read it at a poetry festival.

I'm thinking I might chuck some other poems to magazines and stuff and tidy up some flash fiction to send out while my head isn't in novel writing mode. I have a couple of old bits floating I think could be turned into something vaguely readable. It would be nice to feel I am doing something useful, other than recovering, while I am off uni. Even if I don't get any takers, just sending things would help break the fear I think.

Wow good work bigly. I admire your courage, and productivity! I posted one of the flash stories I wrote from the course on a forum for feedback and the two comments I got both assumed it was the first story I'd ever written in my life and were of the 'not bad for a first attempt, but very rough, keep trying' pat on head variety, which given I've been writing for years and written several novels was so excruciatingly mortifying I've spent most of the week feeling like I've been punched in the soul.

I did finish the poetry course though, and got some lovely feedback for my poem. So maybe I should just give up fiction and write poetry instead!

There's another Futurelearn course I might try about novels. It's aimed at readers and might possibly be a gimmick to sell the books on the reading list, but the syllabus sounds really interesting.

I'm thinking of returning to my novel. My plan is to do this course and read a couple of novels, do some research reading to get my head back into it, then power on. I had a 'serious' convo with dh after having a major wobble following the story feedback and he's right that I just need to get it finished. Because it is good, or at least it's the best thing I've done, I think I'm just scared of committing to getting it submission-ready because I know how hard it's going to be.

Pah! They are clearly fools Tippety, who wouldn't know masterly writing if it were to bite them on the bum.

In all seriousness I am becoming increasingly sceptical about the value of feedback from randoms on the internet. Writing and reading are fundamentally subjective experiences. We all have our own ideas of how we want to write and what we consider important. Even if we ignore the whole questions if whether they can claim enough experience and expertise to have any reason to think they know better, there is the fact that they just might be into different things.

I very much doubt I will ever have much practical help to give someone who wants to a write children's stories about fairies or who seeks to emulate Jane Austen, because I have no interest in either of these things. On the whole I can't see why I would be particularly interested in their feedback about my dark epic fantasy either, because its unlikely they will like it or have any real insight into the genre I am writing for. Give a modernist a Shelley poem and they will tell you it's wishy, over fussy nonsense. Give it to someone who loves Romantic poetry and you get a different view.

This isn't to say feedback from across genres or interests can't be super helpful, but unless I know where that person is coming from and have a good idea of their preferences and style I don't know the context in which they are giving the feedback so can't judge whether it is something I want to listen to it not. In my dream world I would have a group of people from a wide range of backgrounds whose work I know and respect to swap feedback with and then chuck it out further only for wider verification. Sadly I don't quite live in that dreamworld yet. Something to work on perhaps.

I have been oggling these poetry courses though. poetryschool.com/courses I like the fact they are themed so you know you at least are all looking at the same sort of thing and it's led by a published poet so you can get a feel of their work and where they are coming from when they give feedback. Though maybe spending all my money on online poetry workshops isn't the most responsible thing I could be doing right now....

hi
I hope it's okay to ask this here but the self publishing thread doesn't seem to be active.

I am wondering, if I self publish, is there any obligation to provide my contact details anywhere e.g. for legal copyright terms? I don't want my family home address going on anything.

I'm thinking if I pay for a print run or pay for an e book, would these matters arise or is it okay to just print/epublish with no information about me other than autobiography?

Thanks.

Hi lighthouse, it seems unlikely you'd have to put anything identifying in the book, but if you're thinking of self-publishing through Amazon they have a forum that would probably have people who know all about it. There's also the kboards forum which is for Kindle authors. Good luck!

Thanks bigly! I think you're right about needing the right kind of reviewers/beta readers, especially for something like a novel. I'm starting to realise the importance of having a writing community - peers who 'get' what you're doing, even if it's not necessarily the sort of thing they'd write or read, but who are at roughly the same level in terms of commitment, experience etc. This realisation has been a bit slow coming given I'm a socially anxious introvert who barely admits to myself that I'm 'a writer' (if I can call myself that without having had anything published!). But I think feeling like a writer and taking myself seriously will help me put in the insane amount of effort it takes to write a decent book. Otherwise it's just too easy to say 'It'll do' and not push myself. Unfortunately that also requires a certain amount of self-belief, which I don't have much of...

It's cool you're into the poetry. I'm not sure what to do next. I feel poetry is still very alien to me but I have a nagging urge to write at least one more (than the one I did on the course) but without the prompting of the course I have no idea where to start.

Hi lighthouse, welcome to the thread. I'm afraid the intricacies of copyright rules are rather beyond my experience. I would love to hear more about how your self publishing goes though. Did you consider going the traditional route of have you always planned to self publish?

I think I am in sort of the same place Tippety. I am coming round to the idea that maybe I would like to take my writing a bit more seriously and that possibly I am getting to the point with it that this is not such an utterly outrageous proposition. However, actually going out and taking that next step is a bit of a gaping chasm of the unknown. I mean, actually talking to people about my writing... The horror! The horror!

At the moment, as I am a bit bonkers right now, I am mostly writing poems about that, which sounds a bit cliche and urk I know. This does make for somewhat dark and uncomfortable reading I imagine so am a bit careful who I share with. I have put a couple of bits on twitter, just as a way of getting over the fear of sharing, but am keeping back the more uncomfortable stuff for submitting when I think it is good enough, as I think you can get away with more challenging work in a magazine then you can post on twitter or to randoms on a forum.

I agree about needing the right kind of reviewers, and also people that are prepared to read it all (or most anyway).

But for me I don't tend to Critique if I don't understand/like the content. I don't think it's helpful to anyone. If someone asked me to just go through for SPAG etc then I probably would, but not unless they specifically asked me to.

I'm trying not to keep too many things going at once. I really should be editing my main one, as I've got all the reviews on Scribe to go through. I'm not good at editing though.
I've just wasted the last week though on writing a play for the youth theatre I produce for. It wouldn't be happening until next summer, I don't know how many people we would have and don't know whether we'll have a director so it may not happen anyway.
I'm also trying to decide how close I can make it to the book I've pinched the story from. In all honesty it's not much more than the parents that come to see, and I doubt anyone will have come across the book, but I'd prefer to be totally honest and take it straight from the book in most ways.

Thanks for the replies everyone
I have considered regular publishing yes

I've also pitched to a a couple of agents. But the % you get just stuns me. That was my first shock....

I also know a few traditionally published authors and while their experience varies widely, I'd rather self publish and see how I go with my networks.

Welcome lighthouse, 'fraid I don't know the answer either. I've considered self-publishing but feel I want some sort of external validation to know my book is okay. Maybe one day!

I'm 2/3 of the way through the poetry course now and it's fun but I still don't really 'get' metre and poem forms. I read about them and vaguely understand but then when I try to apply it myself it all goes out the window. I think I'll go back to novels/shorts when it's over. Haven't managed to do much other writing in the meantime.

I'm not a fan of crits in some ways, though I know that to lots of writers they're invaluable. Even on SFF forums with writers reading the same sort of stuff as me and having a good level of writing skill, I find crits can vary so wildly as to not be that helpful overall. I take all the advice in but only use that which I actually agree with, which is probably sensible but sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my energy getting/posting crits at all. I've done a lot of them now! I'd rather do my utter best then let an agent/publisher decide. Not sure that's the right approach though.

Writing a play sounds pretty cool witchend. I've never done a proper script before, though have collaborated with my husband on a couple of short crazy art films, which was fun.

I really sympathise with your point of view Light. It's seems with agents and publishers you are paying for a network as much as anything else these days. Everything I read increasingly suggests that they are getting less willing to take time and effort to develop new writers and work on pieces with them, instead wanting perfectly formed manuscripts authors with followings before they will even consider them. If you have a network already and are willing to put the work in why not self publish? I do think self publishing and writers cooperatives are going to become increasingly common and respected. At least, that's sort of my instinct as someone looking in from the outside as an interested party.

I've become slightly obsessed with the poetry at the moment. I now have quite a lot of meh ones, but three that I think are actually quite alright. I've submitted one for a competition and think I would like to get a couple more and then submit some to magazines and see how it goes.

I've not done any work on my novel at all, but have been letting it swirl about and think I might have sorted my ending problem. The current one is a disaster and needs completely redoing. Think I've got one that might just work...if I can now just get my head in the right place to write it.

@BiglyBadgers
"It's seems with agents and publishers you are paying for a network as much as anything else these days"

oh that's an interesting point. Sorry, I had just returned from a long day yesterday so didn't explain myself properly.

for me what's been off putting is that agents and publishers need to look at work in terms of what slots in. I have quite good networks and I've seen authors do well and then suddenly be treated shabbily because they no longer fit the direction the others are going on, or in the case of a sudden large deal, a publisher will decide they've got too much of one particular thing etc etc

I've also seen authors suffer bizarre attempts at completely changing their work because of this e.g. can you chick lit this thriller (!), also stuff playing on ethnic origins - my parents are from forrin so they will try that with me etc

I've seen one author go through months of haggling which ended in not getting a book deal, another go through endless haggling to get 12% of the price of her ebook which hit the market at £2...

and I hate the idea of doing all the events.

these are all big publishers and I just thought, this is ridiculous. I have the contacts, so I would rather move forward with self publishing.

I know what you mean about the credit, but I'm not the kind of person who would ever say to others "I'm an author", I'd just say what my day job is.

I've met a few people who have accepted being paid peanuts or gone on every junket and paid their own travel costs because they want their name known; I'm not that person. I'm not criticising it, it's just I wonder if I can make some money out of my writing. I don't earn a vast amount initially so even if it's small, it's better than nothing and it's like being paid for a hobby.

Just got sent this call for flash fiction: storycities.com if it's of interest to anyone. I might have a go...

Those are all interesting points lighthouse. I'd desperately love the input of a professional editor etc and that's one of the (many!) reasons I'd like to be traditionally published, plus I do not have the personality to network and self-promote (though I appreciate that's now expected however one gets published). It's a bit chilling though to realise you could win the 'lottery' of a publishing deal and still get dropped or sink due to trends and market forces.

@TippetyTapWriter

"it's a bit chilling though to realise you could win the 'lottery' of a publishing deal and still get dropped or sink due to trends and market forces"

to be fair, I think that was probably also the case 20 years ago. The difference now - which I gauged from contacts but also now a couple of senior publishers have told me - is that there are so many people desperate to be published that they are accepting worse and worse conditions and frankly driving rates down and making crappier conditions more acceptable.

from the publisher's perspective, it's like having a massive surplus in the labour market.

Yes, that's very much the impression I get lighthouse. I also hear very mixed things about the time editors will actually spend giving input to new writers these days. I really don't know what the answer is, but I'm watching with interest.

I've found a local poetry group that meet once a month with a guest poet and then open mic. I'm thinking about going along to the August one if I'm feeling brave. I feel like I need to have a go at meeting some other writers and seeing if I can find some poeple to share things with a bit.

hmmm I read the storycities link but I try to aim for paying markets first - none of them pay a lot but every little helps.

On the other hand, the paying markets get hundreds of submissions every month and as long as the market you submit to is held in good esteem then it can still be a good credit! Because I mostly write sf/f and use The Submissions Grinder to find markets, I usually go from top paying first and as I'm rejected go down the list of other markets until I get to zero paying, by which time I've usually (but not always) given up on that story :D.

Here are some good flash markets:

DailyScienceFiction - 8 cents a word - dailysciencefiction.com/submit
Flash Fiction Online - $60 - flashfictiononline.com/main/submission-guidelines-flash-fiction/
Factor Four - 8 cents a word -
factorfourmag.com/submissions/
Every Day Fiction - $3 - everydayfiction.com/submit-story/
Grievous Angel - 6 cents a word - www.grievousangel.org/
Nature: Futures - £85 - blogs.nature.com/futureconditional/2015/04/19/how-to-write-for-nature-futures/
The Arcanist - $50 - thearcanist.io/a-call-for-submissions-244f646d25a4

I have been published in four of them! Naturally I have also had lots of rejections. Eg DSF has rejected me twelve times.

I have occasionally submitted to non-paying markets, especially if friends whose work I like recommend them on Twitter. And the more literary you write, the fewer paying markets there are for some reason.

Paragraph planet only takes 75 word stories and is really fun - www.paragraphplanet.com/submission.php

I think publishers are still looking for new authors but increasingly looking for either a very polished manuscript or a big hook/premise. It's always been the way to an extent I suppose.

I've certainly read about a lot of authors who've got dropped after book two. It's why the day job is so important I guess even though I dream about writing a successful book and dumping it one day!

Bigly the poetry group sounds great - go for it! You are brave. A friend of mine does stuff like this and finds it really encouraging. I'd rather curl up in a corner but I am wimp.

GenericHamster "I think publishers are still looking for new authors but increasingly looking for either a very polished manuscript or a big hook/premise."

I have no issue with that. But authors being bumped seconds before they're about to sign a contract, because someone higher up signed something too similar, or a new marketing director came in and opted for taking the lists in a different direction for that season - likely to be 2 years between acceptance and publication - these are the stories that finally put me off trying trad publishing.

urk that does sound pretty awful.

I need to actually complete and polish a book again before I can figure out what to do with it :). I do feel authors get paid a very poor amount on the price of each book.

btw didn't mean to sound snobby about short fic markets, there are loads of great ones that pay little/nothing.

*sorry if not clear

my 2 years point is that it's more than enough time for that risk - new directors etc - to make a book suddenly get pulled or delayed etc etc

Lots of talk on Twitter at the moment about how little authors earn. Eg this thread (though it's American):

twitter.com/nebrinkley/status/1021510850190950402

Still I couldn't stop writing if I tried (I have tried), so I suppose it doesn't really matter! (ok, well it does a bit/lot)

Generic, thanks for the links.

Thanks for those links generic. I looked at the submission grinder the other day and got a bit overwhelmed, so good top have some recommendations for when I finally get this short tidied up.

The whole traditional or self publishing debate is a bit hypothetical for me for some time I expect as I am nowhere near having a publishable manuscript. However, I do find it shocking that authors I love, who have won awards and are relatively success still seem to end up on mi I'm wage. Yes they are genre and so not huge sellers, but still, minimum wage doesn't seem that much to ask.

On less than minimum wage, I meant. Ho hum...typing fail

Average author earnings are grim. Good job we write for the love of it. Bad job though that it leads to publishers being able to exploit the surplus of willing talent, as lighthouse said upthread. No idea what the answer is. To a certain extent, as we've discussed a little before, I wonder if it's such a terrible thing that most authors need a day job too. Keep them in touch with reality, give them something to write about ... Or they'd end up like Paul Auster and just write stories about being a writer. (Joking really. I quite like Paul Auster). It's also not really new ... Anthony Trollope worked for the Post Office, Graham Greene as a journalist. Etc. I don't know ... It was a similar situation when I completed my degree and was looking for a PhD... there was an oversupply of both graduates and post docs and no jobs, or none that paid well (in my area, ecology and conservation, which is another vocation people do for passion/idealism). Rambling now... shut up Tippety.

I had a look at submission grinder. Thanks for the links generic. I think I've realised I'm not going to be a sff writer, much as I'm fond of the genre. And as you say there's not a big market for other kinds of short fiction. I'd like to get a couple of credits though just to help me stand out from the slush pile if I do ever manage to get this book finished.

That would be great if you go to the poetry group bigly! I feel like writing more but I'm scared to write free verse and if I try a form it's too stilted and I can't manage to say what I want.