Am I an immigrant? Serious question

[pontipinemum]

I really don't know if I class myself as an immigrant or not.

I was born in England to Irish parents. I have never held a UK passport. We lived there for some years. I did all of primary in Ireland then most of secondary in England. Back to Ireland for the leaving cert and then for college.

I'd always call myself Irish.

I was shopping in Navan over the weekend and some people were screaming and shouting outside the shopping centre that 'all the c*nts of immigrants need to f off out' those people were no addition to any society no matter where they were born! But it got me thinking.

I don't mind either way, in primary other kids tried to shame me because I was born in England and was 'foreign'. In England I was called a Paddy (sometimes nasty sometimes as a NN) funnily enough I remember being to told I wasn't born there so didn't belong even though I was actual born there!

You are whatever you want to be I guess but if you have an Irish passport then you are Irish.

I was similar to you, born in England to Irish parents, moved to Ireland after primary school. I would never consider myself an immigrant in Ireland.

And how disgusting those Navan people were behaving. Waste of space.

Don't know if I agree with the "You are whatever you want to". A lot of people in Ireland, will on a regular basis, let someone know if they are Irish. If an Irish person with a different ethnicity, doesn't fit into the stereotype "look of the Irish", they will be made to feel that they are not Irish. "Yes, but where are you originally from springs to mind". These type of behaviours is a constant reminder to this person, that they will never be accepted as Irish.

@Theblacksheepandme I think she means it's probably OK to call myself Irish or English, not that I can suddenly decide I am Vietnamese and because I want it I suddenly am. I have other cousins who 'blood wise' are also 100% Irish but call themselves English because they've always lived there.

The 'but where are you originally from' question. I think most people ask in a genuinely curious way. If I am talking to someone originally from Poland and they say they are from Trim, I might ask where are they originally from because I have been to Poland and it is nice to see if I have been to their town. I am not doing it to 'other them' I am asking to find a connection.

Thing is in Northern Ireland you can identify as either so if you have an Irish passport you can identify as Irish as if our government recognise you as one of our own then you are and makes no difference of your skin colour or accent but as recent riots show this is the ideal and not always the case.

There are loads of Irish people like you OP. Irish parents, born in UK and moved back to Ireland at some point. I would say most are viewed as Irish but years ago there was definitely more of a Plastic Paddy thing then there is now.

The where are you originally from question is tricky now. When I lived in Dublin and worked and socialised with people from all over I knew which county all the Irish were originally from. Even many of the Dubs I knew which county their parents were from. If you’re living in one county and have an accent for another county that gets picked up on and asked about.
But we have to be careful having similar conversations with anyone who is foreign born or maybe foreign born parent. Some people love sharing a bit of their background and appreciate it when you acknowledge their culture and some people feel like they are being othered. The safest thing seems to be not to have these conversations but then you are treating people differently.

The diaspora is a wide, often wonderful and sometimes curious thing. It outnumbers those resident in Ireland. My descent is through my gran (born Ireland to what seem to be go back for ever parents) but she lives in London. I'd never claim to be Irish, just someone with some Irish descent... and a barrow load of other ones. However I have equally descended relatives who are in the USA who have gone Full Irish in ways that puzzle me.

The 'originally from' question is best approached more subtly with different wording, if at all. It's often not where you were born, but where the ancestors were from.

Your experience is almost identical to mine OP. Irish people do have a weird obsession with the birthplace lottery? A nation is not the same as a state but some people can't get their heads around that. There's a guy from a place near Derry in our town and I've heard people call him English Tom , I mean seriously ffs.

My English born kids used to respond to the winds ups with : Inis dom do scéal as Gaeilge. This would soon send them running off in terror. Irish me arse 😂

That is true. Although we should never stop people celebrating their roots either. You could end up with future generations asking why this or that culture was denied them?

I think it would help if we weren't so monolingual. For hundreds of years religion acted as a sort of cultural litmus test. But that's over. Whereas anyone can - or at least could - speak Irish. My friend taught in Dublin and his star pupils in Irish were from central Africa.

By that token , I was helping a woman fill in census forms at our local asylum centre and I noticed she had written her own nationality as "Congolaise". Oh I said , do you speak French ? Of course.
But she insisted I write ' English' only as her language. Did she speak French to her children? No no , English only! She was most insistent on that point.

If her kids had good French they'd fly through it in the Leaving and have good employment opportunities? My tuppence worth anyway!

When the English live abroad they call themselves expats, what would happen if the immigrants call themselves if they move here?

I didn't answer your question but I wouldn't actually say you are, you were born in England and then moved around. If anything, you are second generation immigrants, so settled here since birth despite having moved back for some time.

You would have also said you are Irish because your parents would have told you that from a young age which makes sense. What do you feel? Who do you support when Ireland play England?

@gemloving 100% support Ireland 😁although I did like to see the Lionesses winning. When I was younger I was treated as Irish in England and English in Ireland. Now I'm in my 30s and back here so long I have no hint of an English accent apart from some words if I am upset/ frustrated. So people just call me Irish where ever I am these days. Although I find when I speak with English people my accent starts to morph again.

@Abhannmor that is a pity, my friend at uni did commerce and French, her mam is French. She got a 1st which was largely pulled up by her French, or so she says. She's a bright woman anyway.

@Crunchingleaf yes when I worked in Dublin I would have known which counties everyone I worked with was from. And if peoples parents weren't from Dublin I'd know where their parents are from. You're right probably best not to ask. I do like to think I have a little bit of tact when talking to people, but I WFH and don't socalise much these days so who know!

Ya I'd imagine there are a lot like me. I certainly know a few others who were born in England but came back to Ireland at some point.

I do have a soft spot for England though and probably always will.

Are you asking if you’re an immigrant in Britain or Ireland? It’s not clear

Well she is in Navan. I bet lots of ppl there are immigrants from Dublin now. A whole other thread!

In Ireland, but I guess it works the other way as well.

@Abhannmor thankfully I don't live in Navan but it would be my closest large town. It's not that nice a town these days unfortunately, but yes loads of Dubs around here.

I personally think the safest thing is not to have the conversation. My daughter is Irish with a different ethnicity to me
She gets sick of having to explain the 'where are you really from" to strangers.

If my daughter wants to share personal information she will. She is extremely proud of her ethnicity and heritage and because she doesn't want to discuss this with strangers doesn't mean she isn't proud. Especially when she thinks that they're being nosey and intrusive a lot of the time.

Technically, no, if you were born in the UK. But to be honest, it matters more how you feel. If the UK feels like home, then this is your home. Likewise, Ireland.

And both can be home. Where are you completely at ease? It's up to you really.

I wouldn’t say you are. I don’t think of myself as an immigrant in either countries where I have citizenship whether or not it’s my ethnicity

This - just intruding as an English person with no connection to Ireland, but as an immigrant (definitely not an expat) to the European country I've lived in most of my adult life and now have citizenship of, I loathe and detest the 'where are you from originally' conversation. I will always have it, pleasantly, assuming good will on the other's part, but I hate it. I like my 'foreignness' to fly under the radar - I want to just belong. (I'm also not 'English' to look at - people tend to read me as Mediterranean, perhaps Turkish - which, sadly, can give these conversations an extra edge of prejudice if they don't identify my (very slight) accent as English).

I think that sense of wanting to belong is why so many immigrants struggle when they move to a new country (not just Ireland because it happens everywhere). They want to feel like they fit in and are just like everyone else, however this seems to conflict with a sense of curiosity that many people have. I firmly believe most people are being nice and just trying to take an interest or even just make conversation when they ask the question.
I was often asked the question myself when I lived abroad and would get quite the mixed response from people. A lot of drunken paddy stereotypes thrown about, which I know many Irish people absolutely despise, but I find it useful to find out people’s thoughts on things. It allows me to make sure I am around good people and steer clear of the ones who I find tedious or who are just assholes.

I think you’re an Irish person/Irish citizen who has lived in both the Uk and Ireland. You are ethnically and culturally Irish.

But the problem with 'where are you from' is that people will refuse to accept 'im from Trim/Im Irish' and insist 'no, I mean where are you REALLY from?!'...... ie someone with a name, accent or skin like yours is not Irish. Your intention may not be to offend but in many cases you would be

My daughter thought this was funny when I showed her.

I think people usually class immigrants as someone who moves to their country but has no ethnic link / classed as foreign.

I am from a small island, both parents were born there and came in the 80's. They are immigrants. I was born here and lived here my whole life. If i were to move to my country of origin, and you came with me. You'd be classed as an immigrant and not me - even though id technically be one too!

Americans think of Asians as being from the Far East , eg Japan or Korea. Whereas if I see ' Asian woman ' in a newspaper I'm more likely to think of eg India or Pakistan.

It seeks to be a part of American culture to ask ' what is your heritage?' of other Americans, presumably so they can avoid inadvertently causing offence. That doesn't really apply in our context I guess. I mean 99% of Americans are from fairly recent arrivals .