Am I an immigrant? Serious question

[pontipinemum]

I really don't know if I class myself as an immigrant or not.

I was born in England to Irish parents. I have never held a UK passport. We lived there for some years. I did all of primary in Ireland then most of secondary in England. Back to Ireland for the leaving cert and then for college.

I'd always call myself Irish.

I was shopping in Navan over the weekend and some people were screaming and shouting outside the shopping centre that 'all the c*nts of immigrants need to f off out' those people were no addition to any society no matter where they were born! But it got me thinking.

I don't mind either way, in primary other kids tried to shame me because I was born in England and was 'foreign'. In England I was called a Paddy (sometimes nasty sometimes as a NN) funnily enough I remember being to told I wasn't born there so didn't belong even though I was actual born there!

@MILLYmo0se in fairness to myself, I wouldn't keep pressing. If they didn't want to say anything else I'd leave it. I wouldn't ask if someone didn't have a 'typical' Irish skin colour because I think in the last while that has changed a lot and there isn't really a 'typical' anymore.

It would be the accent. I was recently talking to an English lady I met at a baby play group and asked where in England she was from.

Take Katja on Ireland AM (well just finished up), if I got to meet her I wouldn't ask her where she is 'originally from' because from her accent I would have guess it's Dublin somewhere. I'll miss her from Ireland AM, I watch it on thurs/ fri normally

The link I gave was American but my daughter completely related with this because she gets this from Irish people all the time. Strangely enough the majority of people are roughly in their 30's onwards, sometimes 20's. People her age generally dont give a flying fiddle and have never asked her. She is mid teens.

In relation to Asian the Census Bureau defines a person of the Asian race as “having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

@Theblacksheepandme my cousin lives in Edinburgh her daughter is of Irish and Vietnamese heritage. I lived with them for a short while. I had two S.E. Asian ladies quiz me on the bus 'where did you get this baby' it was quite intimidating like I had abducted her. My cousin said she had been asked similar things loads of times and just said she grew her.

@pontipinemum
Completely unacceptable for this to happen. I am not saying it's just the Irish. We as a family travel quite extensively and my daughter gets it from people Worldwide. There are certain countries that are worse but we have received it from the majority of countries we travel to.

@ShoesoftheWorld
Has said how she feels about this question. My husband isn't Irish but an Irish citizen and has lived in Ireland 25 years now. He feels exactly the same as @ShoesoftheWorld when asked this question.

If I have said it makes my daughter uncomfortable and now I said it also makes my husband uncomfortable. @ShoesoftheWorld has said how she feels. Why do people still think they feel the need to ask?

My daughter and my husband are never rude and I'm sure the person goes away thinking they have done nothing wrong. I will say again that it's not ok to ask, no matter what the circumstances are.

If my daughter and husband want to share they will, otherwise there is no need for you to know.

The accent also means nothing. I am friends with an Irish guy. Born in Ireland, went to school in Ireland and left to live and work in England for the last 30 years. He is asked all the time where in England his from when he comes back to Ireland. He gets asked in England, where in Ireland his from. It gets quite tiresome for him after his asked for about the 10th time when out in the pub. It just points out peoples differences and theres no need.

Out of interest, did you provide the story of the S.E Asian ladies, in order to say that they're just as bad?

@Theblacksheepandme I got that a lot when I lived in England, in England I was the Irish girl, in Ireland I was the English girl. I like chatting to people though and it's an easy ice breaker. Can I ask someone with a Cork accent if they are from Cork?

I said the story to say sometimes I know it can be more than just an icebreaker and can be intimidating.

I feel this conversation has gone very far off course and I am coming across really badly! I don't go around quizzing people about their place of birth, their accent, I can read the situation. I encounter many people with accents who I don't ask about, e.g. my sons key worker in the creche. I know from her accent she isn't Irish but I don't know where she is from. I've never needed to know so haven't asked. But if I met her in a social setting I might ask in order to make conversation and get to know a bit about her.

It's quite unfortunate that when I say that it makes my daughter, husband and another poster also said it made them feel uncomfortable. Instead of reconsidering not asking this question, you insist that it is ok and that it comes from a good place.

We are never going to move forward if we stubbornly insist on not changing. You could possibly, out of being friendly towards my lovely daughter ask this question but you are yet another person being intrusive and making her feel uncomfortable. Also making her feel that she will never be accepted as Irish.

Why not reconsider not asking anyone, instead of being so defensive? There is absolutely no point in having a mind unless we're willing to change.

I am now going to be told that I'm picking on you and making you feel like shit. When the people that really feel like shit is my daughter and husband by you're apparent innocent question and other people asking this apparent innocent question.

I was listening to s programme the other night with a whole load of people saying that there is racism in Ireland but it is not that bad. These were people speaking for foreign nationals etc. We are making a whole load of assumptions and getting defensive about the whole topic.

How about we actually start listening to the people that it's affecting?

🙄
You know from your sons key workers accent that they're not Irish. I despair and feel I am wasting my time. You really are coming across badly. Perhaps my daughter is lucky to be asked these questions in a way, because she tends to give the people that ask these questions a wide berth.

Why doesn't your daughter just reply, I'd rather not answer that question it makes me feel uncomfortable. I've a cornish surname by marraige and people ask me about it all the time. It doesn't make me uncomfortable in the slightest but if it did then I'd just say it to people.

My daughter does say this sometimes and other times she's caught off guard. She is only 16 and will have to learn unfortunately.

Are you really giving your Cornish surname as an example to my daughter's ethnicity? Out of interest are you white? Because I am assuming you are. Particularly by giving an example of your surname. That is like a white person telling a black person when pulled over by police that they just have to comply, just like they do and that it doesn't bother them in the slightest. The comparison is a complete insult.

How about we try to change peoples minds to reconsider asking these questions?

@romdowa
Also, by her saying she's not comfortable with that question doesn't stop her feeling like shit. Nor does it do the same for my husband and he's an adult.

I am just waiting to be told that my daughter and husband are over sensitive.

Can't people find a point of connection by asking about hobbies, holiday plans, and so on? Why does it have to dig up the past? Nobody says "I'm Caribbean mixed race because plantation owners were rapists" or "I'm Chinese British because my ancestors fled persecution" or "I'm Ugandan British because my mother was openly bisexual and at risk of death" or whatever. But where are you from often leads pretty directly to trauma, and white British people don't like hearing about history that isn't pretty in a social conversation. So yes, don't ask! Ask if they've tried a great new local restaurant or what they think of a popular film!

Let me also get this straight. I am not speaking for everyone. I'm sure some people aren't at all bothered by these questions.

What I'm saying is, for the people that do feel uncomfortable. Wouldn't it just be easier not to ask?

I mean I know @romdowa isn't at all bothered about being asked about her Cornish surname and she shows great tenacity in being able to not let that bother her but some people are bothered by the question. Being coached on what my daughter and husband should reply is of no help whatsoever.

Very eloquently explained, thanks.

@Theblacksheepandme I am listening to what you are saying. And I said up thread I was openly bullied in school in the 90s for being English/ foreign/ fatherless. I was mocked in England for being a Paddy and told to f*ck off back to where I came from.

""You know from your sons key workers accent that they're not Irish. I despair and feel I am wasting my time. ""

I don't get what is wrong with knowing that my sons key worker did not grow up in Ireland by her accent. She doesn't have an Irish accent.

@FourteenTog the last person I remember asking was a French guy with a very clearly French accent, I asked where in France he was from, we spoke about France for a bit. I don't think there was much trauma involved in that. Ireland never colonised anywhere

I have a friend that grew up in Ireland and moved to Austria when she was 19. She does not have an Irish accent anymore and people like you assume all the time when she comes home that she is not Irish.

By you explaining about being bullied etc it should give you a greater understanding but it clearly doesn't.

Your example of the man you spoke with, being French and having no trauma is ridiculous. You didn't know if he had experienced trauma did you? Also it is extremely difficult to detect accents, yet you are telling me you knew he was from France.

I have a Moroccan friend that speaks French as it is widely spoken in Morocco. French is her first language. She speaks Arabic to her Dad and his family and French to her mum and whoever else is a French speaker. Would you have made a wrong guess that she was French and asked her what part of France she's from. She actually has spent most of her life in Germany and also speaks fluent German.

There are roughly 28 countries that speak French, in alphabetical order: Belgium, Benin, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Canada, Chad, the Ivory Coast, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, France, Haiti, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Monaco, Niger, Rwanda, Senegal, Seychelles, Switzerland, Togo and Vanuatu. numerous French speaking countries. He could have been from any of these countries.

I am born in England but some of my grandparents came from somewhere else. I now live in Ireland. I don't find it all insulting if people ask me if am from the UK. (I am). Or, if when I tell them my name, which is neither Irish or English, they ask were it is from. I am very happy to share.

And, my family left their country of origin because of persecution, its not really traumatic for me to talk about it, but I guess everyone is different.

Just a wild guess, those eejits in Navan or Dublin rioting and shouting stupid things are not too worried about English people with Irish ancestry moving back here, I think when they say foreigners they mean something else.

I never really experienced any anti english prejudice here. Or people are just polite.

@Theblacksheepandme I do have a good understanding, my understanding is that most people are doing it to make an enquiry about who you are, to get to know you a bit better. People that bullied me about it were assholes. When you go on holidays does no one ask you where you are from? When someone new starts in the office do you not ask where are they from? Where I live now is very small and most people here know each other or at least each others families from birth. They can tell by my accent I am not local and they don't know me. Nice people ask where I am from and say something about that part of the country, assholes call me a blow in.

In parts of Indonesia they were really interested to know where I came from, a lot of people took pictures, I mostly didn't mind that but I didn't like people rubbing my arms and hair. People are curious about other people

I meant he didn't have the trauma of arriving in this country from situations like fourteen had mentioned, of course I don't know what personal trauma he has experienced in his life. Think it is fairly easy to distinguish a lot of accents and a mostly get it correct, but you are right in your friends case it is likely I would have gotten it wrong.

I think we are arguing different things here anyway. If someone asks your DD where is she from and she says Ennis IMO that is fine. But if they then ask but were are you really from, making out she isn't from Ennis well that is very rude.

My cousin is a mix of Irish/ Caribbean her dad didn't stick around so her mam moved back to her small town in Ireland from England, this was the 70s, my cousin was told she was dirty and worse. That is racist, bullying and not acceptable. She is Irish, she says she is Irish, as far as I know no one questions her on that.

Also the key worker has a really strong Scottish accent, of course I could be getting it wrong but I don't think I am.

Your also picking up on @FourteenTog mentioning British and have focussed on this. Ireland never colonised anywhere is irrelevant to what is being said to you. Just go back and read what was being said, without picking up on the British example.

There are people that have left Countries in very traumatic circumstances to live here. Don't you think that could be traumatic and triggering, to discuss this with some numpty wanting to just break the ice? Unless you are psychic, you will not know this prior to asking them where they're from.

@ticketstickets thankfully I think most Irish people have dropped the anti English prejudice apart from a few ejits. In school in the 90s it was around the time of the peace treaty so the other kids were probably hearing crap at home and regurgitating it at school. My maiden name is Irish but the anglicised version sounds continental, I also don't have an Irish name. No one thought I was Irish if they saw my name written down. It also made for a light way to start conversation, 'Oh I thought you would be German'

As Irish living abroad with a dgd who is descended from Cuba, Mexico and Ireland, I think we mainly belong to the culture we grow up in and the bloodlines are interesting but not so important

Part of my point is that where someone is from is not the most obvious or interesting way to connect with another human being, even if it's not traumatic! It shows a hangup with origins and risks pigeonholing people, bringing up stereotypes instead of getting to know the individual. How about getting to know people by asking about their choices in the present and desires for the future?

Absolutely this!

My problem with these conversations is when, to my answer 'well, we live in Town X in current country, but we moved here from Town Y in current country 2 years ago', the response comes back 'no, I mean originally'. If I don't mention my 'origin' myself in response to a 'where are you from?' question, I don't find it relevant and don't want to discuss it, precisely because it marks me out as 'other', in a context where I just want to be (and am! this often happens when I meet people in the context of community activities) 'one of us', and it renders me vulnerable to stereotyping.

The ones I love are those who then go on to ask 'so how are you finding Town X? Settled in well?'