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Anyone raising English kids/kids in England and finding some bits a bit odd?

214 replies

HolyShmoly · 04/09/2023 22:48

Long time, no mumsnet but I'm hoping I'll find some sympathisers. DH and I are both Irish, from Donegal and are living in England for a number of years. We have kids born in England who are now school age and much more aware of their Englishness. Its really weird.
We were home recently and driving through the North she was excited because she saw her flags. The same areas that we'd be praying not to have to stop in, she thought looked welcoming. The women's world cup I was encouraging her to celebrate England. She'll be starting history this year and the burden to ensure she doesn't see just one side of the story feels large.

I dont want them to feel like they can't celebrate where they come from, but celebrating England feels like I'm breaking a lifetime of conditioning.

OP posts:
Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 12:42

TwirlBar · 07/09/2023 17:30

Agree with this except for a few bits. Also some additions.

1.I don't agree that it's 'odd' that Ireland's like this given the history. It will lessen over generations as you say. It's already lessened a huge amount in the south of the country over the past century. My grandparents (who had their houses raided several times by Black and Tans) viewed England very much more harshly than I or my children do. Not so sure of the situation in Donegal as it's so close to NI and the much more recent Troubles.

  1. Individual people are generally made very welcome and most live very happily here. It's the establishment that most people have issues with. The recent disregard around Brexit. The general lack of understanding of what happened here.
  1. I agree British culture is inhaled. Man U and Arsenal jerseys on the kids Christmas lists every year. The Royal family have been viewed with interest by many Irish for many years, like a celebrity thing really. My granny loved Princess Margaret.

4.The accent thing is true, but then I know Kerry people who are horrified that their kids now have Dub accents...it's not that strange to expect your children to be like you and that's a big part of it. But maybe not quite all of it.

You said that you don't think it is odd that Ireland has anti-english sentiment , given the history.

I disagree. I find the level of anti English sentiment in Ireland to be very extreme, bizarre and unusual. I find the English hatred seems to be tied up in Irish nationality in Ireland. Like to be Irish , you must hate the English. I live in Ireland.

Ireland acts like it is the only country to have ever been invaded, when in reality, nearly every country has been invaded by its neighbouring country in history.

I have visited Poland many times. As I have cousins there. You could argue that Germany did far worse to Poland, than England did to Ireland , in history. Yet the polish people do not have the same level of hatred for Germany.

They certainly don't hate children born in Germany today. I cannot understand why in Ireland , you are people hating English people just because they were born there.

Its actually disgusting to be honest. I've seen some really awful things happen in Ireland.

Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 12:44

you get people hating English people just because they were born there

mathanxiety · 10/09/2023 16:44

@Mooshamoo I bet your Polish cousins have negative feelings about Russia though.

Frankly, I think you're overegging the scale of anti British feeling.

I do think there's a certain amount of bafflement among Irish people wrt the Brexit vote, and I think certain British politicians' ideas around Brexit and comments wrt Ireland in the context of Brexit were tone deaf, patronizing, and unhelpful in the extreme where Anglo Irish relations are concerned; naturally this has had an impact.

TwirlBar · 10/09/2023 17:50

Hatred is a very strong word @Mooshamoo
I am Irish and I absolutely do not hate English people so you're very wrong about that. Some of my ancestors did. They had good reason. Times have changed and these feelings have lessened with each passing generation.

People are proud to have a bit of Scandinavian heritage these days. They don't still resent the Vikings for invading. The horror of it has been forgotten. The horrors of colonisation by/war with Britain are more recent and recovery takes a long time. It takes generations really. I am in the ROI, some of my grandparents lived and fought during the war of Independence. One grandparent grew up among people who had lived through the Famine. If you wanted to see what real hatred looks like in my family you're 100 years too late.
And there were atrocities on both sides no doubt about it. But it's over. We want it to be over. And it mostly is thank God. We want to get on with our neighbours and we do get on great in many ways. Brexit did some damage, hopefully not long term.

English people are most welcome here as far as I'm concerned. There is no hatred from my family, not for a long time now. I'm friendly with several English people living here. They seem happy to be living in Ireland too.
Still wouldn't trust the British government to look out for Irish or even NI interests, mind you. The suggestion of Irexit was laughable.

SnowflakeCity · 10/09/2023 18:33

Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 12:42

You said that you don't think it is odd that Ireland has anti-english sentiment , given the history.

I disagree. I find the level of anti English sentiment in Ireland to be very extreme, bizarre and unusual. I find the English hatred seems to be tied up in Irish nationality in Ireland. Like to be Irish , you must hate the English. I live in Ireland.

Ireland acts like it is the only country to have ever been invaded, when in reality, nearly every country has been invaded by its neighbouring country in history.

I have visited Poland many times. As I have cousins there. You could argue that Germany did far worse to Poland, than England did to Ireland , in history. Yet the polish people do not have the same level of hatred for Germany.

They certainly don't hate children born in Germany today. I cannot understand why in Ireland , you are people hating English people just because they were born there.

Its actually disgusting to be honest. I've seen some really awful things happen in Ireland.

Ah cop on. Seriously. I'm English in Ireland, as are my parents and quite a few relatives and nobody hates us. I haven't had any anti English sentiment in about 20years. You are waffling on like English people are made strip naked and walk down the streets while Irish people spit at them. There is feck all hatred out there for English people in general, maybe for arseholes but it isn't something that is a part of my life or my families lives here at all. I'm living in a town but most of family live very rurally and have no problems at all, they have more than integrated into their local communities.

Even my dd who has somewhat of an English accent/some English phrases and sometimes she is asked about her accent and she says oh my moms English and that's that, nothing more is ever said.

You pop up on all of these thread spouting the same shite about how grim Ireland is, how awful Irish people are etc I don't know what has made you this way but you should really move on, it's bizarre and unusual.

Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 18:49

SnowflakeCity · 10/09/2023 18:33

Ah cop on. Seriously. I'm English in Ireland, as are my parents and quite a few relatives and nobody hates us. I haven't had any anti English sentiment in about 20years. You are waffling on like English people are made strip naked and walk down the streets while Irish people spit at them. There is feck all hatred out there for English people in general, maybe for arseholes but it isn't something that is a part of my life or my families lives here at all. I'm living in a town but most of family live very rurally and have no problems at all, they have more than integrated into their local communities.

Even my dd who has somewhat of an English accent/some English phrases and sometimes she is asked about her accent and she says oh my moms English and that's that, nothing more is ever said.

You pop up on all of these thread spouting the same shite about how grim Ireland is, how awful Irish people are etc I don't know what has made you this way but you should really move on, it's bizarre and unusual.

Edited

The irony.

You said that there is "feck all" hatred for the English in Ireland.

Eh, you do realise that you wrote that on a thread where the Irish OP is saying that she is uncomfortable with her own children being English, yes?

Lol. What a thread to write that there is no hatred to the English in Ireland. Do you see the title of this thread? And did you read where the OP said that she felt that she had to break years of conditioning to celebrate anything English.

Abhannmor · 10/09/2023 19:00

This ^. I can't imagine where you live @Mooshamoo . Was thinking it might be some republican heartland in N Ireland. But even that doesn't compute as I have English friends who love Belfast and Derry .

I live in County Cork , scene of many atrocities and gun battles between the IRA and Black & Tans in the old Troubles. We have English friends and neighbours. No one cares . Whatsoever.

SnowflakeCity · 10/09/2023 19:07

Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 18:49

The irony.

You said that there is "feck all" hatred for the English in Ireland.

Eh, you do realise that you wrote that on a thread where the Irish OP is saying that she is uncomfortable with her own children being English, yes?

Lol. What a thread to write that there is no hatred to the English in Ireland. Do you see the title of this thread? And did you read where the OP said that she felt that she had to break years of conditioning to celebrate anything English.

The OP said nothing about hatred of the English at all. If you are getting hatred from her post then I think it's pretty cleat why you think irish people hate English. You can say something negative or feel uncomfortable with something without it being anywhere close to hatred. One thing you can't be living in Ireland is too sensitive and it seems like that might be your issue.

Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 19:12

SnowflakeCity · 10/09/2023 19:07

The OP said nothing about hatred of the English at all. If you are getting hatred from her post then I think it's pretty cleat why you think irish people hate English. You can say something negative or feel uncomfortable with something without it being anywhere close to hatred. One thing you can't be living in Ireland is too sensitive and it seems like that might be your issue.

Did you not see where she said she felt she had to break years of conditioning against the English. ???

If I said that I was uncomfortable with my children being Indian , would that be acceptable do you think?

SnowflakeCity · 10/09/2023 19:24

Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 19:12

Did you not see where she said she felt she had to break years of conditioning against the English. ???

If I said that I was uncomfortable with my children being Indian , would that be acceptable do you think?

Well seeing as I said sometimes it's weird me having Irish kids I wouldn't think much. It is weird sometimes having kids growing up in a culture not yours, no matter what the culture. She never said anything about hatred at all. I love living in Ireland we have a far better life than kids would have in the UK but that doesn't mean sometimes it doesn't feel odd to raise kids outside of your culture and knowledge.

You are getting shit that isn't there because you already have bad feelings about Irish people in general. That's really clear from your posting history. I'm bowing out now because I have better things to do on a Sunday night but if you are living in Ireland I genuinely hope you find a way to move past your obvious hurt and distaste towards Irish people because you will never be content here until you do and Ireland has so much to offer if you have an open mind and heart.

mathanxiety · 11/09/2023 16:09

Mooshamoo · 10/09/2023 18:49

The irony.

You said that there is "feck all" hatred for the English in Ireland.

Eh, you do realise that you wrote that on a thread where the Irish OP is saying that she is uncomfortable with her own children being English, yes?

Lol. What a thread to write that there is no hatred to the English in Ireland. Do you see the title of this thread? And did you read where the OP said that she felt that she had to break years of conditioning to celebrate anything English.

You're adding two and two and making five there, @Mooshamoo.

You grow up in a certain community where everyone has the same accent, everyone knows what you're talking about when you chat about the Leaving Cert or some deadly poem you had to kearn by heart for the Junior Cert (and then it never came up) and suddenly you're the mother of kids who are pronouncing their THs like Fs , who are learning songs in school that you don't know, whose playground games come with a different vocabulary - yes, of course it's odd. It doesn't mean you hate it or you're going to suffer an existential crisis over it. That's too much of a leap.

My own children recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States every day in elementary school. I only learned this when my third child was in second grade. I'm not sure what I thought that flag was doing lurking in the corner of all the classrooms I ever visited, but heyho... My DDs were Girl Scouts - sold GS cookies - DS was a Boy Scout. They went through all the rituals of American childhood and youth - graduation from 8th grade, Homecoming dances, taking unfamiliar exams in an unfamiliar format, driving at 16, high school graduation, prom, one of them even pledged a sorority.

It is strange AF to see your children doing stuff you previously only saw on The Brady Bunch or glimpsed in the pages of National Geographic, and meeting women with the kind of hair and clothes and cars and homes I had gawked at on Dallas was mind blowing. I read high school academic catalogs from cover to cover and did hours and hours of research about university application and financing and threw myself into the new normal. I was even the cookie mom for one DD's girl scout troop.

I grew up in a very left leaning Irish home in the era of anti-American protests at Greenham Common, at the height of America's very dirty war in Central America and in the wake of America's golden age of regime changing geopolitical games all over the globe as the Cold War reached its nadir. My classmates and I watched BBC, UTV, ITV, and Channel 4 programmes as well as RTE and enthusiastically followed Ska bands and embraced the anti-Thatcher feeling of the times. If I hadn't met exH I wouldn't be living in the US, and my children would probably be Irish, or possibly British, or who knows, maybe even German. I have relatives all over the place and we all come and go.

My schoolmates - most of us managed to be simultaneously fans of various English Premier League teams as well as diehard Dublin GAA fans and supporter of Irish rugby - are scattered all around the world, and of those in Ireland, a large number formerly lived abroad. I think it would be very odd in this day and age to encounter an Irish person with a deep hatred of Britain.

Lydiana · 12/09/2023 10:44

I know this thread is about cultural identity and I'm am going a bit off topic but I thought I would mention another positive of living in the UK... HRT prescription 'one off' payments!
Definitely worth staying here for.

bythebanksof · 12/09/2023 19:52

I'm English, as it DH, and have always enjoyed living and working in Ireland. I actually spent a few years in secondary school and Uni here as a teenager. Then did further studies and worked in UK for a long time, and moved to work again in Ireland over a decade ago.

There was fantastic support here for England's womens team in the world cup. Most people here really dislike the English national team, and always hope for them to fail, which I find odd given most people here support English club teams!

Kids have to find their own way in life. Ours support Irish rugby, but England football (soccer) team. Our kids have a mostly English accent, not the typical accent from these parts where we live.

RoadLess · 12/09/2023 22:40

Good post, @mathanxiety.

Absolutely to the oddities of having a child growing up in the rituals and norms of another culture. Then I brought my English-born and -raised child home to Ireland, with a cut-glass RP accent (which has been greeted with enthusiasm, if anything, by his classmates), and he combines being mad for GAA as well as Arsenal and continuing to identify with elements of his English identity as well as his Irish one.

I could never find England alien having grown up reading Austen, Thackeray, the Brontes, Hardy, Houseman, Woolf etc, having studied and worked there for years, and having large numbers of relatives and friends there. London will never stop being my city.

We are large and contain multitudes.

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