Anyone raising English kids/kids in England and finding some bits a bit odd?

[HolyShmoly]

Long time, no mumsnet but I'm hoping I'll find some sympathisers. DH and I are both Irish, from Donegal and are living in England for a number of years. We have kids born in England who are now school age and much more aware of their Englishness. Its really weird.
We were home recently and driving through the North she was excited because she saw her flags. The same areas that we'd be praying not to have to stop in, she thought looked welcoming. The women's world cup I was encouraging her to celebrate England. She'll be starting history this year and the burden to ensure she doesn't see just one side of the story feels large.

I dont want them to feel like they can't celebrate where they come from, but celebrating England feels like I'm breaking a lifetime of conditioning.

ColleenDonaghy · Today 14:49

Flags which you consider 'offensive' in NI are a matter of national pride for a section of the community there, and where you currently live. So I think you need to drop that old chestnut. (I have no beef over flags, I think they're all tacky unless on a government building!)

Also, I'm at a loss to know where you would be driving in NI that you would be praying not to have to stop in? 'No go' areas aren't a 'thing' any more. Yes, there might be areas where a southern reg would be noticed, but that's all.

Not my experience at all. There are definitely areas I wouldn't relish stopping in or using my DD's Irish name. Not many these days, but certainly a load of union jacks and blue, white and red kerbstones don't scream happy welcoming place to me. And of course others would feel the same about an area covered in tricolours.

I dislike flags and painted kerbs equally on both 'sides'. I am no longer intimidated by them though. As part of my job, I have to do more than "stop" in areas from both traditions. I can equally be up the Falls as the Shankill and I don't give a shiny shit!

What? Many people have mixed heritage, many people feel one nationality but live elsewhere. I don't think it is unusual to reflect on this.

But surely you can understand that these feelings are visceral rather than logical. And it would be strange for Irish people living in England, who don't travel through such areas on a regular basis, to see their DC interpreting the flags as jolly and celebratory when that isn't their gut reaction at all.

I think most of us would find it strange to be raising children with such fundamentally different experiences to us. Not unreasonable of OP to want to talk that through.

I hope you imformed him that a constitutional monarchy is democratic. In the case of the UK, which has a strongly limited constitutional monarchy (dating from 1688 and the Glorious Revolution, which solidified Parliament as the supreme law-making body), it has been a crowned Republic since the late 18th century.

'But surely you can understand that these feelings are visceral rather than logical'

Yes, that's a fair point

My Lovely Man was a London Irishman. His DF was from Kerry, and his DM was Irish, not sure where from. They were both Catholics but their marriage was disapproved of because of something to with Irish history that I haven't grasped.

Anyway, they came over in the war, there was (and still is) a family farm in Kerry, but it couldn't support all the offspring. So the lovely Dennis came over and earned his living as a painter and decorator. When they first came to London, of course they had trouble finding accommodation but ended up buying a house in NW London. LM told me that every year, his DF bought a load of toys - and then left his family in London to go to Kerry and deliver them.

I learned only basic English history at school in the 1960's - no real Irish history apart from a brief mention of the potato famine - and England's disgraceful response was complete news to me until about 2 decades ago when LM explained some Irish history.

LM and me moved away from London (me from S London!) to go to university. And here we stayed! Later in life his parents moved up to be near, and I am happy to report that his DF's baffling Kerry accent remained with him up to the end of his life

During his youth, Lovely Man would go over in the summer to The Family Ranch, as he called it, and work on the farm.

We only got together late in life, and I went over to Ireland with him several times. I think he was a little sad that in Kerry his accent made him seem less of a Kerryman than he thought himself to be at heart. But at the same time, he was always a Londoner as well.

I don't know whether this will help you at all? Thankfully, the history of the English in Ireland is a lot more accessible than in my young day, and has TV programmes about it shown on British TV. My only advice would be to pass your history on to your DC.

You sound pretty racist, OP

@Sidslaw you forget that the Irish are a diaspora. Hence Irish-American, London Irish, etc.

I'm guessing that kind of blunt, uninformed, lacking in nuance response was not what OP was looking for when she posted a considered OP in Craicnet.

Perhaps if you don't understand the complexities at play here, read rather than post.

racism is racism is racism, however many words you dress it up in

Please point to where the OP is racist.

My friend and his wife were living in London, he is Irish, she is from Eastern Europe and they loved London, until one day his daughter came home from nursery and said ‘it’s coming home’ talking about football and whatever reaction this caused in him, they put the house on the market immediately and moved to Ireland within weeks.

I don’t know why I told that silly story here but I think sometimes you are just ambling along happily and then something happens to cause a reaction, and it makes you question your choices. Do up a pros and cons list about where you live if you like but your children are English now whatever you do.

100%.

N.Ireland is at the extreme end when it comes to national identity (hence the tribalism and sectarianism that has existed here). We confront it in our everyday lives (think England vs Scotland, being played every day, there's no let up).

A British person in N.Ireland is a totally different animal to a British person in Great Britain. Likewise an Irish person in N.Ireland is a different animal to an Irish person in the Republic of Ireland. In the north we are extreme versions of both as we feel we have to constantly fight for our identity (both tribes), hence the flags, coloured pavements....for gods sake Stormont (the n.Ireland government building, really a glorified council) was shut down over a dispute concerning the nationalist's demand for an Irish language act....despite the fact Irish is barely spoken, and I say that as someone who did Irish for GCSE (got a B despite being able to speak two words of it)....the other tribe wants Ulster Scots recognised as a language..lol.

Yes we have improved, but much backwardness persists.

A spell in London certainly knocked any edges off me, when I could see how ridiculous all the historical 'hurts' were - and I didn't have any time for that bolloxology in the first place

Generations of Northern Irish people have been carrying around deep traumas, hurts and suspicions for a long time. Communities have been forever changed and lives completely destroyed during the Troubles. There is still a legacy of pain for a lot of people, even those who are tentatively moving forward and want a bright, more unified future.

Maybe you find the historical 'hurts' ridiculous and have no time for that kind of 'bolloxology' but it is really just the past 30 years that people are starting to come away from am absolute war zone mentality. I've been typing this out and just thinking about some of the atrocities that were carried out during the Troubles, and to refer to the historical hurts as ridiculous, in as blasé a manner as it reads, is actually pretty offensive.

I take it you are from Northern Ireland yourself, as you seem to feel like you have some kind of right to make this kind of comment. Only even that seems strange, as you should know exactly the wounds that many people have been living with. I mean, I get it that we should be past the segregated, suspicious, tribal politics of before, but I really struggle to understand how anyone can fail to recognise the enormity of what happened to the Northern Irish people, on both sides.

I lived in England for years and it didn't make me stop feeling empathy for my parents generation and what they endured, as well as any residual emotions that following generations are having to navigate.

I think anyone saying they have been ‘conditioned’ to hate another race of any description is the essence of racism actually. Imagine op had expressed the same sentiment about Africa or Pakistan?

If there was an England v Ireland match in any game or sport, I rooted for England, and Lovely Man rooted for Ireland. Neither of us were into football, but Gaelic football - now you're talking! We would both be rooting for the same side then, and I knew about the Kerry connection to Paudi O'Shea (in fact I've been in his pub).

My kids born here and I will NEVER make them feel bad for being English. I teach them about Irish history as they are part Irish but not as a stick to beat them with. Their Dad is neither Irish nor English so we are a mixed household anyway and I celebrate that. National pride has always been a strange concept for me and over the top national pride in anyone from any country gets on my last nerve.

A) Someone saying they were raised conditioned to hate Pakistan but are working to break that attitude for their DC would no be being racist, they would be the opposite of that.

B) OP said she was conditioned not to celebrate England - not conditioned to hate England. You will understand the clear difference between those two sentiments. If you have any understanding of the history between the UK and Ireland you will understand what she means.

Great post @Topofthemornintoya .

Sorry that's rubbish.

I'm Irish as I was born and brought up in N.Ireland. If you have not been born or brought up on this island you ain't Irish in any way. You are of Irish descent (if you have Irish ancestors) but that's it.

The "Irish" were among the worst racists in america. Meanwhile actual Irish people welcomed Frederick Douglass, a black man enslaved in america, when he was in Ireland (1845) and couldn't believe the contrast with how be was treated:

Link to quote;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass#Travels_to_Ireland_and_Great_Britain

"I am covered with the soft, grey fog of the Emerald Isle [Ireland]. I breathe, and lo! the chattel [slave] becomes a man. I gaze around in vain for one who will question my equal humanity, claim me as his slave, or offer me an insult. I employ a cab—I am seated beside white people—I reach the hotel—I enter the same door—I am shown into the same parlor—I dine at the same table—and no one is offended.... I find myself regarded and treated at every turn with the kindness and deference paid to white people. When I go to church, I am met by no upturned nose and scornful lip to tell me, 'We don't allow niggers in here!'"

@Mumofteenandtween if they're good enough and they want to there will be a way for them to represent Wales. I have a small amount of debatable Welsh blood but could have represented Wales in some sports based on the fact that I went to high school there for 7 years despite not living her until 10 years ago.

It’s not enough to say you are working on your racist ideology and conditioning, as you would soon find out in any court or tribunal. If op can’t even bear the Englishness of where she lives, clearly she is speaking negatively about another race. It wouldn’t be acceptable to say she couldn’t bear how African the area is. It IS racism.

No one gets a free pass when it comes to racism - no one.
There is ‘history’ between countries literally everywhere in the world, you are not special! So it’s def not okay to say it’s acceptable because it’s aimed at the English.

Don't be ridiculous. She hasn't done anything to land herself in a court of law - unless feeling a bit weird about her DC cheering on a football team is a crime now.

OP hasn't posted anything hateful, stop clogging up her thread with hyperbolic accusations of racism and let her puzzle this out.

I find your attitude stunted. Racism has not been acceptable for a VERY long time, at least not in civilised countries.

Again, OP isn't being racist. Facing up to your DC having a very different identity to you is something lots of parents struggle with for all sorts of reasons. OP is sensibly puzzling that out - there have been umpteen posts on here from people whose parents were immigrants to the country they grew up in who never felt at home or accepted in either place. Perhaps if their parents had embraced their dual heritage like OP is endeavouring to do, they would have felt more at ease.

I live abroad with my Irish husband. Most of our children were born overseas. They don't get automatic citizenship to the country we live in, even though one of them was born here, as nationality goes by heritage where we are. They have Irish passports and are Irish citizens whether you believe its true or not.