Anyone raising English kids/kids in England and finding some bits a bit odd?

[HolyShmoly]

Long time, no mumsnet but I'm hoping I'll find some sympathisers. DH and I are both Irish, from Donegal and are living in England for a number of years. We have kids born in England who are now school age and much more aware of their Englishness. Its really weird.
We were home recently and driving through the North she was excited because she saw her flags. The same areas that we'd be praying not to have to stop in, she thought looked welcoming. The women's world cup I was encouraging her to celebrate England. She'll be starting history this year and the burden to ensure she doesn't see just one side of the story feels large.

I dont want them to feel like they can't celebrate where they come from, but celebrating England feels like I'm breaking a lifetime of conditioning.

I was born in England, one parent orange from the north and the other a Catholic from the south. I am Irish, doesn't matter what you think as I have a passport that proves I'm Irish and it isn't your gift to bequeath or withhold.

Nope to which part?

What 'vast cultural difference' between 'Ireland' and 'America' do you have in mind?

What part of America and the culture thereof are you referring to?
What part of Ireland and the culture thereof are you referring to?

Or what time in history are you talking about and have you ever heard of movies, TV, the internet, international travel, etc?

George Orwell once wrote, "Why is it that the worst extremes of jingoism and racism have to be tolerated when they come from an Irishman?" He was thinking of people like Oscar Wilde and W. B. Yeats, who spent most of their lives in England, yet constantly sneered at all things English. There's a sort of unspoken agreement that Irish patriotism is OK, but English patriotism isn't. It's the same with Britishness. British identity is now 'problematic' (even toxic), yet Scottish and Welsh identity are fine.

I have known several people with only the most tenuous Irish connections (an Irish grandad, for example) who support Ireland in the World Cup. It's hard to imagine someone born in Ireland, with an English mum and an Irish dad, supporting England or identifying as English.

I have nothing against the Irish btw (like Most English people I have some Irish ancestry).

That's exactly the reason we moved back home when our children were born.

Very true. I grew up feeling totally Irish, all my relatives were Irish, I went to a Catholic school and most of my teachers were Irish, most kids were either born in Ireland or first generation born in England. The parish Priest was Irish, the curate was Irish. Every summer we went home for the holidays, home being Ireland. My doctor was Irish. I didn't really know anyone who wasn't Irish until I was a teenager.

I had a choice when I got a passport and I got an Irish one. My kids can choose from three, British, Irish or their father's country. I think they all have British passports, a couple also have Irish, one is thinking of getting one from their father's country but due to rules about having to live there for a certain period after getting the passport they have to time it right.

A friend of LM, also London Irish, was happy to be called Paddy, Pat, Patrick, Pardroig (sp), and, later in life, The Irishman. It probably helped to distinguish some of his class mates from each other when referred to...

Being the only one to find those posts offensive.

Interesting. I’m English and bringing up children in Northern Ireland, and the only thing I really mind about bringing up Northern Irish children who despite coming from the ‘British’ side of the tracks, see nothing ‘cool’ about being half English in the same way their friends with a Scottish or Welsh parent do. Being English definitely comes with baggage on this island.

The RF is 0.000000000001% of the populous, in other words hardly indicative of British society.

Regards slavery, it was never legal in England. The Somersett's case of 1772 made clear it was unsupported by common law in England. It is speculated that this case is one reason why slave owning tyrants like george washington and thomas "the monster of Monticello" jefferson initiated the "american" revolutionary war (the colonizers war) as they have to give up their plantations (ie. their wealth).

To get back to you original question @HolyShmoly - I know it might feel odd to celebrate Englishness as it literally never happens at home, but if she grows up in England that will always be a part of her background and culture. I'm kind of surprised that it's only occured to you now though - my husband is English (all grandparents Irish, both of his parents born in London and he identifies as English - rightly I think) and all my Irish friends have already speculated on what it would be like to raise English kids!

@DeeCee77 never provided for by statute in England, but of course all those British & English slavers in the colonies were somehow not included in your Enlightenment idyll.
Honestly, as a university history lecturer this kind of shit is why it’s maddening to teach topics like the “Glorious” Revolution.

Add me to the list of those finding your comments on who qualifies as Irish offensive, too.

Ooh another England bashing bashing post. Who Would've thought?

Oooh another person spectacularly missing the point - who would've thought?? It's Craicnet. And there's support for England/Englishness on this thread if you'd bothered to read it.

The main contrast is that Ireland is exceptionally hospitable, see the Frederick Douglass quote, and america is exceptionally bigoted.

Is there another nation on the Earth, who has a founding document, that dehumanized a people?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/05/facebook-declaration-of-independence-hate-speech

As someone who isn't English and born on a completely different continent I always felt it was bizarre that people born in my home country would often have a double barrel nationality.

I mean think of the USA (I'm not american btw). There's a big community of Irish immigrants in New York City and Boston and they celebrate their Irishness. Likewise Italians. So they always would say they were Irish Americans or Italian Americans. Not just Americans. Now my ancestors came from somewhere and I think that nice and part of what I am but it's not my nationality, even if it was my parents or grandparents.

Since I live in the UK and have never been (& probably never will be) a British citizen I perk up if I hear my homeland mentioned on the news or "my" national team competing in the Olympics or whatever. I guess that's where you are now but your children are where I was when I was growing up.

Ireland is exceptionally hospitable. Are you serious?
A lot of my Polish friends on Ireland say that the Irish treat them as if they are sub human. If you look at a lot of job reviews on glass door for the big companies in Ireland , there are a lot of reviews saying "the Irish employees were treated better than anyone else".

I met an absolutely lovely Doctor in Ireland , who and moved here from Pakistan. He told me that Ireland was not what he thought it would be like, that he thought it would be friendly. He said that people were very abusive to him. He told me that he is now leaving Ireland.

Ireland ia only a friendly country if you are Irish.

I live in Ireland. There is still a lot of anti english sentiment in ireland. I can never understand the depth of it. Yes England invaded Ireland a long time ago. Bit that is not unique to ireland. Most neighbouring countries have invaded each other at some point in histoey. The ridiculous thing about Irish people having anti English sentiment is that now a lot of Irish and English families are mixed. So are those Irish people going to hate their own children?

I agree, it’s even played out in this thread. Only friendly to those that certain posters deem to be “acceptably” Irish and those of us of mixed heritage who grew up in another country are not Irish at all. Very friendly isn’t it. Hypocrites.

Ireland ia only a friendly country if you are Irish.

I'm not Irish and find Ireland fine. I wouldn't say I was treated any differently to anyone else. I married an Irish man, have Irish in laws, Irish friends. I don't have a massive chip on my shoulder and a dislike for Irish people though

'Exceptionally hospitable' 😂tell that to everyone living in Direct Provision! The US obviously has huge problems with race, but Ireland is certainly not céad míle fáilte for everyone.

Ireland is definitely not a friendly and hospitable country to foreigners. Ive seen some shocking abuse to foreigners. And I have heard a lot of bad things said about foreigners in Ireland.

I've heard so many times in Ireland "there's too many foreigners here. The foreigners are taking over. Will they ever fuck off back to their own country".

Just last week I went to volunteer in a charity shop in Ireland. The volunteer manager said to me "ah great you're Irish. There are way too many foreigners volunteering here".

I went for a cup of tea with her. And she said again "it's a good thing you're Irish, I was getting sick of the foreigners"..

I was actually born in England but I have an Irish accent. So I'm not fully Irish.

I hear stuff like that a lot in Ireland

At this stage of my life (late thirties) , I just think that nationality is a load of bolox.

As people only ever seen to use nationality to hurt others or to say they are superior.

Most of us move around different countries. We are not just from one country.

I think " nationality" is a term that seperates us.

We are all from the world

I only referred to England (hence the law in England where slavery was unsupported).

The colonies is a different matter.

In regards to the English and Frederick Douglass (since I already mentioned his warm welcome in Ireland), he stated in England he was treated not "as a color, but as a man". He also became legally free in England as British supporters raised funds to buy his freedom from his american owner Thomas Auld.

As an Englishwoman who married an Irishman there is still a lot of muttering about England; even worse with the children. I was young and naive. I wouldn't do it again.