Anyone raising English kids/kids in England and finding some bits a bit odd?

[HolyShmoly]

Long time, no mumsnet but I'm hoping I'll find some sympathisers. DH and I are both Irish, from Donegal and are living in England for a number of years. We have kids born in England who are now school age and much more aware of their Englishness. Its really weird.
We were home recently and driving through the North she was excited because she saw her flags. The same areas that we'd be praying not to have to stop in, she thought looked welcoming. The women's world cup I was encouraging her to celebrate England. She'll be starting history this year and the burden to ensure she doesn't see just one side of the story feels large.

I dont want them to feel like they can't celebrate where they come from, but celebrating England feels like I'm breaking a lifetime of conditioning.

Well, I'm pretty old, and have lived 300 miles away from London for decades, although I do go back to see my family.

So maybe it's out of date. It's still the label Lovely Man and I were happy to use up till his death 5 years ago. Mind you, he was from North London, and I was from Sarf London, so he looked down on me for that Which is perfectly normal, and a running joke between other Londoners from different points of the compass that I've met

Think the annoyance stems from when "Irish" people in america inflicted horrific racism on black people. They werent Irish, they were americansed with the all consuming racism that is deeply embedded in the culture there. In the same century Frederick Douglass was welcomed throughout Ireland.

I've seen black people in videos comment "Irish" people did this, "Irish" people did that, when referring to what was done to black people in 19th century america. These are not Irish people.

That's basically all I should have said. Dont lump us in with the acts of people 5000 miles away.

@DeeCee77
Yet more evidence that you didn't study history or think your attitudes through in a logical way, I'm afraid.

You can't disown the racist Irish in America and call them 'Americanized' just because you're uncomfortable with the racism of Irish people and their descendants, and have for some obscure reason chosen not to see modern day racism in Irish people.

The Irish in America were (from at least the 1870s on) and remain a very diverse group, occupying every single spot along the socio-economic, political, and attitude spectrum. You can't just claim the people you prefer.

I'm sure there were people in Ireland who wouldn't have touched Frederick Douglas with a ten foot barge pole when he visited, and wouldn't do it today either. Speaking as an Irish person who has relatives who are not white here; I can't unsee what I've seen at social gatherings in Ireland, or unhear what I've heard from people who assumed I would share their racism because of the colour of my skin.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/stage/2023/08/18/low-lie-the-fields-of-peckham-rye-martin-mcdonagh-and-the-london-irish/

This author would definitely disagree with the idea that the term London Irish isn't a thing and that the thing itself doesn't exist.

What an excellent article, @mathanxiety Thanks for posting it (even if it is from a North Londoner)

LM and I were born in the 50s, and what he writes chimes in with what LM experienced.

Willesden, mentioned in article, is near Kilburn, and certainly in the 70s and maybe later, in Kilburn you were supposed to put money in the (how shall I put it) rebel fund box if you entered certain pubs. Builders used to pick up Irish subcontractors and labourers round there early in the morning, or so LM told me. I don't know whether they had been there long enough to count as London Irish, though

"We have always found the Irish rather odd - they refuse to be English ". Winston Churchill.

The default setting when I was at secondary school in England was very much this. The Empire was a benevolent Christmas club and anyone who wanted out must be a bit weird. But the teaching of history has changed an awful lot since those days. Some of the old stuff has been imbibed of course , judging by the patronising claptrap above.

As to flags , the English flag has no bad connotations for me. You didn't often see it until fairly recent times. The Union flag still makes me a bit jittery though tbh. Because whenever I saw one on a badge or a tee shirt , trouble was never long in coming. I can certainly relate to the OPs worries in N Ireland on that score. Flags are rarely seen in the RoI absent some football competition. Thank god. Bin them all .

On the subject of your children. I'm surprised they don't know about Red Hugh O Donnell and Co as you're both from Donegal. Our mother told us all that stuff when we were kids.

Poppies. My grandad was a Garda sergeant. He was a WW1 veteran and lost a brother in Ypres. He also fought in the War of Independence. Every year he bought a poppy - the most expensive one was half a crown and he always bought that one. But he left it on the mantlepiece. He wanted to support the disabled survivors. But said he couldn't wear the symbols of two nations on his police uniform.

I wouldn't worry about your lads. They can support Donegal at GAA and England at soccer! We came home when our kids were 6 and 10. All grown up now.They love Ireland but still have a grá for London. Though as a pp has said , Brexit seems to have altered the atmosphere in some indefinable way ?

Sports and boys/men is an interesting topic! I grew up in a family where my brothers played a lot (I did athletics and hockey, no football since it was not a thing for girls then at home, or boarding school). Our family supported a team called Linfield, not the most local team, because my two uncles played for them at various stages. I still look out for their results.

My DH supports a team on the south coast of England from his childhood, they've never done well (maybe this is the year though?). Even the worst football teams in England have great support in their communities. It's a lifelong interest. And whoever the other local teams are , they REALLY dislike them.

Even though our sons did most of their school in Dublin, both support England football as a result of DH. They also have their own favourite teams in England Premiership, and have ZERO interest in Linfield or Plymouth Argyle, even though we bought them the team kits several times when they were younger.

Btw, I was bullied when I started boarding school in England for being from Ireland, even though I'm from one of those "flaggy" areas with the Union Jacks.

Oh dear @DonnaHadDee . How can you win eh?

Irrelevant factoid : Plymouth Argyle are the only league club to play in green. Or has another one popped up? Off topic but the craic is surely better supporting a small club like them or Linfield. Cheaper too.

But isn't your area a bit posh for the flaggy stuff - tooraloo tooralee notwithstanding.

I was listening to the radio earlier and there was a man talking about how 3 of his brothers were killed in 'the troubles' and another talking about the loss of his father and how now thanks to the British government they will never get justice. I know it is not really relevant to this thread but I think a lot of English people forget that this all happened not that long ago, this isn't some ancient history we are talking about. This is people who are alive now who had family members taken from them, in terms of history this is relatively new. The idea that people should just 'get over it' when they still bear the scares is absurd really.

@Abhannmor Linfield a small club??? I'm offended :) They've dominated the league there during the 80s and again during the mid-late 00s. And a more recent treble too. How dare you!!

I was a few miles away from the most sectarian areas, and never encountered any issues growing up since it was very (very very very) homogenous. In the past two decades there is a lot more money in the area, but it is typically not the locals. DH does a lot of running, and the first times he visited our area, he was advised by my father not to wear his "Pilgrims" kit.

Good grief. But even N. Ireland play in green ffs.

Any road ...I had this nice ould fella from Ipsos Mori round asking me questions about the reunification thing. I wish I'd secretly recorded it. Some of the questions were a bit loaded. Eg - would you be more / less likely to vote for a united Ireland if it made you €4000 worse off.

Well duh! Also how attached are you to the flag / anthem. Not very. He only showed one alternative flag : a single shamrock on a plain field.

Would the economy improve / worsen ? Too many variables.

I said I'd prefer a third option - like federal or joint sovereignty. In / out could lead to Brexit style chaos and bitterness imo. But he said that wasn't on the questionnaire.

He also shot down my suggestion that the green on the tricolour should be darker - it's way too Day-Glo. Not relevant apparently. Well really. Also forgot to ask who commissioned the poll...
Interesting though.

Ps No offence to Linfield. Got to be bigger than Cork City 😂

I'd say yes to another anthem for sure (Roisin Dubh? Danny Boy? Aisling Geal?), and the very ancient deep blue flag with a harp on the front (and I suppose it would be on the back too) would be nice.

The deep blue harp flag is from the Royal College of Heralds afaik. The association with the shamrock and green goes way back to the Irish missionaries or peregrinati of the early middle ages. Dying in exile from Ireland was known as the Green Martyrdom. Of course the football association ditched the ☘. Not inclusive enough apparently.

The anthem....please not Danny Boy. So hackneyed. Yes We Have No Bananas has a good non denominational history in NI btw 😉

I think the deep blue with harp was first used by king John back in oul God's time, and later Eoghan Rua changed the blue to green and kept the harp. I could be mistaken though.

I thought the harp emblem was a Tudor device. And what are we to do with the Emerald Isle. I can be sapphire I suppose .

But really all this heraldry is faic all to do with us. I recently looked up the arms and motto of my family. All invented by the then English government. There are some old symbols no doubt in various families , which predate these inventions.

To be honest OP, that's why we moved back to Ireland. My DH and I had been living in England 10 years when we had my eldest.we quickly decided that we wanted her to be an Irish girl, with all the cultural touchstones we had. I would find it strange raising a child with a different accent and culture to me. Obviously millions of people around the world do this everyday, but it's just not for me. Eight years back now and she plays GAA, learns Irish and goes to Croker to watch matches. I'm delighted we came home. Lots of other benefits to us too of course, but that was our main reason.

As to the English flag, well, Wales and Scotland each have their own flags. You wouldn't see any English flags at all at a Wales v Scotland football match.

Namechangeniamh the reasons you give are the reasons I am glad I wasn't raised in Ireland (Irish mother and English father).
Me and my siblings were not remotely sporty nor did/do we have an aptitude for languages so compulsive learning of Irish would have been difficult.
As for the catholic church...phew...we excaped the pressure to do communion and confirmation except for a bit of pressure from our mum which we ignored.

My mother spent our childhood saying she would retire to Ireland and when the time came, well, she didn't. Even though she won't admit it we all know why she didn't and it's simply because she prefers England. She made friends she sees daily here, she is part of the community, she has her three children here, she has the NHS here.....and so on.

You don't have to do GAA @Lydiana Well maybe a bit in school but it's not compulsory to do it otherwise though I suppose it might depend on where you live. Friends' children are mostly into soccer, horseriding, golf, taekwando etc (or nothing at all like me). We're not all GAA fiends.

Most kids enjoy the Communion/Confirmation days out. It's an expense for parents but not seen as 'pressure' by kids usually.

Irish is compulsory all right unless you have a diagnosis of dylexia or similar I think.

Dyslexia🙄

Namechangeniamh wouldn't you have to actually believe in god to do communion and confirmation? Surely there's more to it than a day out??

@Lydiana don't worry lots of us have absolutely zero interest in GAA. I don't personally know anyone who is big into it. It's only on MN that it constantly comes up on threads as some sort of badge of Irishness lol

Nice try on backpedalling there. You meant born and reared and are trying to weasel your way out.

Pity you won't be commenting further though - your obsession with Frederick Douglas is very amusing. He's not proof that there are no racist people in Ireland though. My non-white Irish friends, and non-white people who I know living in Ireland have all experienced racist abuse to varying degrees. The far right is growing in Ireland - groups protesting against refugees are getting louder, which is a bit rich considering how many Irish people have emigrated for economic reasons over the years.

I love being Irish - but Ireland has problems just like anywhere else. And in the case of the OP, there are probably reasons she left Ireland, but sometimes it's not until you see your child not having the same connections to your home as you did that it really makes you think about where you are from. Not because its better or worse, just different.

Not sure if that question's for me Lydiana?

I think when you're eight at least it's up to parents what you're taught. How can you say what you truly believe in or not at that age? Or even at 12. It's the parents decision to enroll the child for the sacraments.

I'd imagine most of the kids don't think about it too much (and neither do some of the parents to be honest) but they do enjoy it for the most part. Many kids probably focus more on the dress and party and gifts than on the religious side of things and that's not ideal of course, but my point was the don't generally see it as a 'pressure' to be avoided