The awful incident in Cavan

[hollyisalovelyname]

My thoughts are with the relatives and friends of those who died.
Just awful.
May they find some consolation somewhere.

I've been reading the recent reports and am slow to comment with respect for Clodagh and her family.
If this had been me....as well as the anger toward the man who murdered my children, I would have been furious at the intrusion of people who didn't, and couldn't, understand my story.

However, I think as a society, it is imperative on us to examine why a man sees his wife and children as extensions of himself to the extent that he murders them as part of obliterating himself.

The wife and family ownership/reflection of myself- it's not a point of view unique to Alan Hawe . It is manifest in much of Ireland's attitudes to women/divorce/mothers/abortion etc.

That is why I am glad to see that the Irish Times has a note at the end of every story on this case, that refers readers to domestic abuse resources.

The wife and family ownership/reflection of myself- it's not a point of view unique to Alan Hawe . It is manifest in much of Ireland's attitudes to women/divorce/mothers/abortion etc.

I only half-agree with this. It's definitely not a view unique to Alan Hawe but it's not particularly Irish either. It's all of western culture. I think the Irish attitude to abortion (and formerly divorce) comes from a different place: not so much viewing women as owned by men and more about fetishising motherhood.

I lived in the UK for years and found the family-as-extension-of-man attitude more prevalent there, despite the general acceptability of abortion and divorce. Little things like being addressed as Mrs Hisfirstname Hissurname, 99.9% of women I knew automatically changing their name on getting married and never considering otherwise, the kids being asked about their father's job instead of either parent's... All 10 X more common for me in UK and it drove me crazy. And I think that particular form of sexism is what leads to prevalence of abuse - rates of stalking, domestic violence, and women murdered by partners or exes, are all more common in the UK than Ireland.

The solution will be a long time coming if we view it as an Irish problem needing an Irish solution. Have any other European countries managed to reduce their rate of domestic violence and murder? Maybe we can borrow a trick or two from them.

MarDhea I agree it's not peculiar to Ireland; there is a "flavour" of patriarchy in Ireland that does not see women as people in their own right, but it is not confined to there.
There are bizarre attitudes to women in Australia; and in parts of the US (though I found it hard to distinguish what was misogyny and what was racist notions about Irish people).

It's interesting to think about "fetishising mothers".
I think you have a point there- I want to have a ponder about that.

Interesting research here here (OECD) and here (WHO).

All of which seems to point toward improving bystanders understanding of the dynamics and reducing societal acceptance.
So not shrugging and going "none of my business" or "it takes two to tango".

Thanks for the links Adelica - really interesting stuff there.

There's a peculiar dynamic regarding sexism and domestic violence that's sometimes called the Nordic paradox. Some of the best-scoring countries for women's rights, economic independence, participation in public life, etc. (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) also have the highest rates of domestic violence against women in Europe. Conversely, countries that score relatively low on equality measures (Italy, Greece) tend to have the lowest rates of domestic violence in Europe. There was some suggestion that perhaps women in Nordic countries are more likely to identify and speak about their experiences of domestic violence than Italian or Greek women, but follow-up research found it wasn't the case. (Ireland was about mid-table for equality and low on domestic violence rates, btw.)

IMO, Italy and Greece are examples of other cultures that have traditionally fetishised motherhood. The Italian mamma, Greek mama, and Irish mammy... all stereotypes of a strong/formidable female figure who shows her love via vast amounts of food, acts as the linchpin of the extended family group, and is probably a bit too involved in the lives of her adult children (particularly sons). It seems that particular cultural stereotype of mothers is associated with lower rates of violence against women. It's still a sexist stereotype but perhaps it makes it a bit more difficult for men to see themselves as the owners of their wives and children.

I've read about that before MarDhea.
It seems to me that so much of people's relationships are tied up in power rather than connection.
So when women have power (being mum, the rule setter/disciplinarian) men/boys will submit.
And when men have power, it's dominance.

No sharing. No connection based on mutual respect and intimacy. Intimacy requiring us to be vulnerable...which is the antithesis of how one feels safe, if all relationships are power-based.

That's not particularly well thought out, but hopefully you get the gist.

...and in this context, if AH felt his "power" slipping away, perhaps he had little else to fall back on?

That's conjecture and unfair as I didn't know him or his family.

There may not have been physical domestic abuse prior to the ultimate physical domestic abuse iykwim.
May they rest in peace.