So many consider themselves underpaid, where does this leave our society?

[Reluctantadult]

Didn't know whether to put this in politics or cost of living, but suspect this gets more traffic at the mo. Just musing that so many people think they're under paid now. Where does this leave us as a society? Groups that are considering striking or pre-strike action, that I have read of or know of myself: railway workers, train drivers, nurses, teachers, barristers, bus drivers, baggage handlers, paramedics, bin men, BT engineers, postal workers, the Environment Agency, Natural England...

Yep and their response to the ruthless destruction of our planetary home is to build bunkers to hide from the rest of us, or to abandon the planet entirely for Mars! You really couldn't make it up, it would be too far fetched. Meanwhile billions needlessly suffer and starve.

The rich have created a utopia for themselves and a dystopia for everyone else.
It's madness and I sincerely hope the tables turn soon.

I'm in the very highest tax bracket.

I come from extreme poverty and I've supported my children to get good careers and go to university.

I wasn't always - for a very long time I was on minimum wage and claiming benefits and I have worked bloody hard to get where I am.

Why would you overthrow someone like me?

Me too but I am now seriously worried what it will take. Because for eg 40C in the Uk and 1/8 species threatened with extinction globally somehow isn't bad enough. I'm an environmentalist. I used to be an optimist. But it's very hard.

@user1471465329 sorry wasn't meaning to call names, it just sounds a bit loony to call for a revolution and overthrow the rich when I was talking about higher tax payers not billionaires!

Shouting "overthrow the rich" isn't interesting to me, but practical ideas about wealth redistribution and how to ensure public sector workers get paid enough would be genuinely interesting.

Does anyone actually have any tangible ideas that could be implemented by the right government?

I think there's something here about the system rather than individuals.

This is the point I was making! It's mostly random accounts, lawyers, doctors, senior professionals that people on this thread are shouting should be "overthrown"

Like what does that even mean?! lol

OK so Conservatives say we can't afford public sector pay rises as it would cost £28bn. But I read that £11.3bn would go straight back to the government in tax. So actual cost is down to £16.7bn. Say the rest gets spent on goods and services, supporting peoples livelihoods. VAT 20%, that's more coming back in to govt coffers, bringing costs down to £9.5bn. Pay people more and they will stay in teaching, NHS, public service. Vacancies will be filled. Productivity will rise. What's the £ benefit of that to offset? Then I think, well how much was that PPE cock up in the news the other day? £8.7bn.

In my view they could afford it. This is a choice.

I employ local people to do jobs for me (gardener/cleaner) and I pay them way over the odds (£20 an hour when they asked for £10).

I give to charity every month (a substantial amount).

I shop local where I can (not always I admit).

I have supported my children without any input from their dad (my ex).

I pay every penny in tax through paye and don't do any sort of tax avoidance schemes.

What more do you want of me?

I'm really angry that you'd "overthrow" me.

I started again in my 30s with fuck all. And I do mean fuck all. I've worked bloody hard and overcome a lot of obstacles to get where I am. I give back and I contribute.

Why am I the enemy?

Yeah it is depressing. I was recently reading a website dedicated to the feelings of climate scientists regarding our future. A lot of them are clinically depressed bc they are at a loss on how to get the message across, because that message contradicts the view and interests of those that run society at the moment. Some of them have been hounded by the press and lobbyists just for stating the evidence.

And yet I can see how we ended up here. The greed and entitlement of the monied classes always had an utterly brutal effect on the rest of us. The way the early capitalists defended their use of child labour, the way they happily profited from the trans Atlantic slave trade, the shooting down of strikers and rebellions, the more recent wars for oil by the likes of Blair and his supporters, all led us to this point. It's gonna take a huge shift, something like a social, economic and political revolution, for us to even hope to have a future, whatever that future looks like.

Have you seriously never even heard of these kinds of ideas before? I guess money doesn't guarantee intellectual curiosity or decent education.

Maybe you should read a book or something.

Me, me me. How deliciously exemplary.

Absolutely.

@asys- well done you. Sounds like an inspiring story.

many user names starting with “user….” are not the most genuine. Ignore.

those paying into the system, raring children, supporting local communities, working hard are definitely not the problem.

If the whole world has gone tech giant and financial system crazy, it is just one of those things. If our own country isn’t an outlier not much can be done. We don’t exist in a vacuum but through close intrinsic relationships with neighbouring countries and trading partners. We all have the huge cost of ageing populations to contend with, for example. Many governments have lost control.

I can assure you I'm being completely genuine in my posts.

But feel free to ignore, I'm not particularly interested in being insulted by rich folk.

It is an absolute disgrace the way this country is run
The tory run press, pitting people against each other, whether it be the "benefit scroungers" stealing your money or the immigrants better off than everyone and getting your money. Or be it the wealthy skiving all their money away.

Basically big corps need to pay tax, alot of tax.
Wealthy people pay more tax, quite rightly.
Governments need to stop back handing money to their mates.
Everyone should earn a wage that means they don't need to be scared to put the heating on or not be able to feed their family.
We have enough money in this country for every person to eat, be warm and access to health care. The government needs to manage it better.

Me me me.

Yes. So what? I'm a high earner and I'm proud of myself for that.

I pay every penny in tax I'm supposed to. Via paye. I don't dodge or fiddle as much as a penny.

It's hardly a bad thing that I decided to make something of myself? I found a niche and I'm well paid for it.

Exemplary? Yes. Fucking right. But I worked damn hard for it. It was not easy.

Sorry, don't have time to read the full thread. With many people it's not the low pay they object to but working conditions. So many posters on here hugely entitled when it comes to flexible working and working from home and they really don't see how this affects public facing jobs like teaching, nursing and care work. Why should most of you think it is your human right to use your phones and go on MN during your working day when teachers and nurses just can't. There is a growing disparity between many peoples working condition and public service careers. Teacher recruitment is at an all time low. Who wants the pressure and responsibility these days when there are so many more flexible jobs out there. I really don't think a lot of posters get that. There has to be far more perks for teachers, nurses, care workers if we really want to attract staff.

My "exemplary" didn't mean what you think.

I was referring to the irony of your response to a discussion about the self interest of the rich.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot as I’m a nurse but what everyone on our department is worried about is that we might get a pay rise due to the strikes but that money will have to come from somewhere so will our vacant posts stop being advertised or downgraded and will our department budget be cut as a result. Or will our taxes go up to pay for it all?
Minimum wage has already gone up and all the big corporations just pass that onto the consumers so the price of everything just keeps going up.

Fair enough @asys - good to hear you've managed to get on well financially. But I do think a good news story from one person is a bit like peddling the UK equivalent of the American dream? That if you try hard enough and work hard enough, you'll somehow 'make it'? Sure, some people do. But we've got nurses, teachers, rail workers, public servants, all in jobs that keep the wheels of life turning, with 10yrs of stagnant pay and now the backdrop of energy and food prices etc. That to me is a societal issue.

I come back again to this being an issue around how the country is run and underpaying whole chunks of society that undermines our country.

You're not the enemy asys, absolutely not, the system is!

Someone upthread asked what could be done. I've just done an internet search and a guardian article says Tax losses due to fraud amount to £35bn.
That would more than pay for the public sector pay increase. So crack down on tax dodging for a start.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/16/tax-lost-in-uk-amounts-to-35bn-almost-half-say-campaigners-due-to

This is an interesting website - fullfact.org/economy/tax-dodging/

To me, how the pay rises are funded is a choice. It doesn't need to come from NHS trust budgets. If pay rises are given then staff retention and ability to recruit might go up. Productivity then goes up. Waiting lists come down.

I don't work NHS but am public sector. In my direct team we've had 1 vacancy circulating for 2.5yrs now ... we cannot compete with private sector. We're down to 3 vacancies now and 3 people left plugging away.

@Reluctantadult . What about my point about lack of flexible working for all the public service jobs you mention. I know so many people who have left teaching and it is not because of low pay but poor working conditions and lack of flexibility

@anexcellentwoman i don't have all the answers. If I did then I'd like to be a politician! But I agree with your point, that's part of the picture. Perhaps they need higher pay to compensate for the fact its an inflexible job?

It won't work unless the pay is significantly higher than other sectors. Just read the threads on MN about teachers leaving and it is always poor classroom behaviour, difficult parents and unreasonable expectations. Poor pay is rarely mentioned.