The WhatsApp message leak

[Mycatsgoldtooth]

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

As far as I'm aware, all the Scandi countries have a higher suicide rate, I think?

This "weaponising" accusation. What is meant by that exactly? Subjects which are used in support of an stance/argument that you don't like?

It's like that "I find that offensive" tack.

Accusing other people of weaponising things is itself being used as weaponisation in this thread. Telling us all how offended you are that people mention abuse in lockdown is weaponising the anger and sadness that understandably surrounds cases like Arthur's.

The only issue is whether people are correct about the claims they make. If mention of UK suicide rates during lockdown is wrong, it's not wrong because someone doesn't want to hear it, it's wrong because the claim made isn't correct.

I don't think a constaint refrain of "I find that offensive" is very helpful during a discussion, it's a rather manipulative tactic to ensure that certain things are off-limits.

The tyranny of the weak

Not exactly a constant refrain.

Two things I’ve found offensive:

Bandying incorrect statements about suicide and citing a child abuse case to promote a Great Barrington type sentiment about lockdown.

Stinks of the sort of opinion piece you’d find in Unherd or the manifesto of a certain UK political party who I hope do not gain any sort of power.

From an article about young people in last months Woman and Home.

73,000 young people had mental health counselling sessions with Childline in 2020/21

24, 200 young people had counselling sessions with Childline about suicidal thoughts or feelings in 2020/21

According to mental health charity Young Minds 83% of young people with mental health needs felt the pandemic had made their situations worse.

If you think this is untrue or they are weaponising you can always put a complaint in to these charities i suppose. And take it up with them or W&H

You are entitled of course to find whatever you like offensive, but you're weaponising your feelings of offence along with general societal views of sorrow and outrage at abuse. Complaining about other people weaponising is therefore hypocrisy.

@JenniferBooth

The issue is using that information to
promote a Great Barrington type stance.

That article doesn’t state ‘lockdown caused all these issues’ - it states the pandemic caused the issues.

You can’t just say lockdown caused all the issues without considering whether or not poor health, overwhelmed hospitals etc caused the issues too - and how much worse the situation would have with no measures to control infection spread - no masks, no lockdown and no vaccine.

I'm not sure what is so awful about the Great Barrington stance - it, and it's authors, were viciously demonised but ultimately they were correct.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard

To be honest, it doesn’t come across to me as genuine sorrow where there is absolutely no consideration to how a lockdown free, mask free and vaccine free world would have fared.

And I also wonder - as this is a political thread - which political party you would want to see in power who would have supported these kind of sentiments??

@FrostyFifi

Really? Well Labour were against it, Tories hobnobbed with it. And then - your more extreme right wing UK political parties thought it was a great idea. Maybe you’ve got more in common with the Tories than you’d like to think - or worse.

Maybe you’ve got more in common with the Tories than you’d like to think - or worse

Why are you making any assumptions at all about my politicial leanings?

@FrostyFifi

Because this thread is about politics, you’ve just said you support the GBD - and there was only one UK political party in agreement with you.

You've misinterpreted, the sorrow I'm talking about is societal sorrow, not the feelings of anyone in this thread. It doesn't matter whether you think people who have talked about increase of abuse etc in lockdown are genuine or not, either in general or in respect of the point being made about weaponisation. You yourself are weaponising and you're being a hypocrite when you do it. You've also yet to demonstrate any way in which you'd be willing to tolerate people citing instances where lockdown was a factor in increased abuse, deaths etc.

There is no party in the UK that wouldn't have locked down in March 2020, it was politically impossible to do anything else in the political climate. It is a choice that didn't exist. I'm on the left so I'd have preferred a more left wing pro lockdown party, rather than the right wing populist shitshow pro lockdown party we actually got. If nothing else we might not have left the EU in the middle of the pandemic if the Tories hadn't have been in. Labour did make a few noises about more severe restrictions when Omicron was coming in, but they'd have been subject to enough of the same practical considerations as the Tories that I don't think it would've happened. I'd have taken a less horrifyingly right wing pro lockdown Conservative party even, but that too was out of the question.

@MinkyGreen I'm not tribal like that. My views on the handling of the covid epidemic were informed by my own circumstances and views.

However what you said is Maybe you’ve got more in common with the Tories than you’d like to think
Now why would you assume that I would or wouldn't like to think I have something in common with the Tories? You've completely projected your own political leanings onto me there on the basis of a single viewpoint I expressed.

Always worth saying, again and again, that the restrictions based approach was implemented by a right wing populist party in England. While I don't think any other party could've done anything different, it's the party of Johnson, Gove, Priti Patel, Suella Braverman et al who own it. At no point in the pandemic were the parliamentary left sufficiently numerous to be relevant.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard quite. This is literally a thread about a Tory minister. There are quite some mental gymnastics on display.

I thought the great Barrington declaration was a really good starting point for some sensible covid strategies.
It doesn't mean that I support some right wing party. Do you think Dr Bhattacharya is an extremist?
Why are you making these assumptions about other viewpoints?
There's a lot of crossover in the political world and there are good and bad in most parties.

Sorry my question was to @MinkyGreen

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard

The ReformUK Covid manifesto was all GBD. They wouldn’t have locked down.

I think the Tories were reluctant to lockdown and just turned everything into a massive balks up because they dithered so much.

Left wing governments in other countries potentially made it work with an immediate hard fast lockdown.

I’m very accepting that lockdown was a factor attributing to mental health issues, abuse.

That’s not the issue I’m finding offensive. It’s using those awful situations to effectively back an argument which is more about : GBD, individualism, economic wealth, fit v’s the weak, anti-science etc.

That’s not the issue I’m finding offensive

That part really is your problem though. It's a viewpoint, you don't like it, your emotions about it are your own. Again, expressing that isn't helpful to the conversation in any way. Just present your counter-argument.

Great Barrington Declaration authors:
Sunetra Gupta is a Professor of Theoretical Epidemiology at the Oxford University Department of Zoology.
Jay Bhattacharya is a professor of medicine at Stanford University
Martin Kulldorff is a professor of medicine and a biostatistician at Harvard University.

These are the people being accused of being "anti-science".

@FrostyFifi

Its not really up to you to police what I say or feel on this thread. It’s an open thread for all to comment. And we don’t want echo chambers do we? So long as I’m posting within Mumsnet guidelines.

Okay , crack on with telling everyone how offended their viewpoints make you feel. I'd prefer to hear your actual views but as you say, you're not breaking any guidelines.