Push for masks to be reintroduced

[GerardusMercator]

Over the last few days I've noticed a big push in media to get masks back on the agenda. A brief foray into twitter and flick through a few Covid threads here, and I've seen all the old pandemic era versions of 'it's no hardship to mask'/ your selfish if you don't want to mask etc start to creep back in.

How many of you are-

1. Still masking now
2. Will mask if it becomes guidance
3. Will mask if it becomes law
4. Will not mask again under any circumstances

I really struggled with masks and don't believe they make a great deal of difference (covid theatre) so would be somewhere between a 3 and 4.

Before anyone has conniptions, I'm not suggesting anything formal or mandated. Just gentle suggestions to perhaps not stand too close to other people in crowds - that's it.

4 and will be exempt. Although judging by the London underground and one London theatre yesterday the 'let's all wear masks again' message is falling on deaf ears.

I think you're quite fond of the word 'conniptions' aren't you? 😉

Thanks for clarifying. A comfortable distance is a metre or two perhaps?

I don't share your optimism that this would achieve anything much. People keeping apart in public spaces ultimately needs numbers to be low. That obviously costs money so isn't going to happen, and even without it, some of the places you're talking about might well be quite hostile to the idea. Shops for example won't necessarily want queues blocking access to the goods because people are standing further apart, as that has obvious financial risks for them.

If you just want Rishi or whoever to say it a few times and then wait as the population pay no attention, that's one thing, but I'd be dubious about any resources being used on something so toothless. And while I'm sure we've all known the pain of someone coming and sitting right next to us on a virtually empty bus some time or other, it would be a rather bad joke on much of our public transport at the moment. The cohort relying on it have already been subjected to rather a lot of behaviour policing over the last three years, frequently from people who have more options than they do.

1. I'm exempt.

But I tbh I don't think they made a huge difference anyway. People don't wear them properly. They wander round with nose sticking out or keep touching them and pulling them down.

I think masks should be brought back in only for those who are ill. They don't protect you anyway, only others from you.

@GerardusMercator

I think you're quite fond of the word 'conniptions' aren't you?

I guess I am 🙂

Same. I also wear one in any busy, enclosed space.

About to order some new ones.

I do understand that some people have sensory issues, and that mask wearing makes things difficult for people with limited hearing or those who are deaf.
However, if more people wore masks, it would reduce the spread of airborne illnesses.
Finding the balance between protecting health and also allowing natural immunity to develop is tricky.

My Dd has just had a very big operation put on hold because the hospital is overwhelmed. Its time-limited. She had her beautiful long hair shaved off yesterday in preparation. I know there’s lots of you not ever going to wear masks again, but please can everyone try and not spread stuff.

@Tinysoxxx

I wish you and your daughter all the very best.

The mask is back in my bag.

It is possible to take both positions. I don't see it as my responsibility to look after other people's health. However I also know masks are pointless

@Yesitisnotthatitbe

When I read posts like the one above (poster has a daughter with a major operation delay) - my sympathy absolutely lies with her, and not with your personal observation/hunch which is not backed up by any kind of robust scientific evidence or major study.

The major studies say that masks are effective against RSV/Flu/Covid. I don’t want her daughter’s hospital to be so overwhelmed that they need to delay her op - so I’ll wear a mask when advised.

I really don’t care if you don’t care, but don’t start trying to manipulate the science to back your stance.

Very possible and very convenient!

The science has been maipulated on both sides of the argument since day 1, so I am not sure that you can claim outright certainty on the effectiveness of mask mandates.

Sturgeon has “advised” masks for over 12s in indoor enclosed spaces and on public transport. Not mandated though. Which is fine by me. Anyone who wants to wear them crack on. I expect a few more people may start wearing them now, their choice, my choice is not to.

@fromdownwest Ok - read all this and get back to me:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536

www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-01814-3

www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118

www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg6296

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0264389

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068302

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2022.874693/full

www.bu.edu/ceid/2022/08/10/new-study-based-on-mass-schools-finds-masks-protected-students-staff-from-covid-19/

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y#ref-CR1

www.poverty-action.org/publication/impact-community-masking-covid-19-cluster-randomized-trial-bangladesh

www.thelancet.com/journals/landig/article/PIIS2589-7500(21)00003-0/fulltext

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02786826.2022.2053656

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0272989X211019029

www.gov.uk/government/publications/nihr-the-effectiveness-of-ppe-in-reducing-the-transmission-of-covid-19-in-health-and-social-care-settings-december-2021-update-12-december-2021/nihr-the-effectiveness-of-ppe-in-reducing-the-transmission-of-covid-19-in-health-and-social-care-settings-december-2021-update-12-december-2021

erj.ersjournals.com/content/60/3/2200009

aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0094116

www.ukri.org/news-and-events/tackling-the-impact-of-covid-19/understanding-coronavirus-covid-19-and-epidemics/masks-role-in-slowing-spread-of-covid/

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.28.22278153v1.full-text

www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/jom-2021-0214/html?lang=en

amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/wearing-masks-single-most-effective-way-to-tackle-covid-study-finds

www.researchgate.net/publication/347790866_How_effective_is_a_mask_in_preventing_COVID-19_infection

Ok, whilst I read all those articles, can you explain to me how China who has had stringent mask mandates in for years now, is in such a mess?

I would have thought that the strictly enforced mask mandates would have reduced transmission and more or less eradicated COVID. However, the country with the strictest mask mandates in play, is in the worst position a few years later.

I am sure you will have a citation for the answer to this.

And also how many of those “studies” cover the efficacy of masks that were 100 for a fiver off Amazon and scrunched up in someone’s pocket for a week?

even if masks were effective (which I doubt) people don’t wear them properly and you can’t make them.

Because if what you are saying is true, and they make no difference - it needs to be more than a hunch or an observation. There needs to be adequate explanation as to why your observation is better evidence than the 22 articles I linked there.

It needs to be properly evaluated by the best people qualified globally, and peer reviewed - and then it will become consensus opinion : masks are ineffective.

If you start reasoning that you know better, and encouraging others to do the same and - god forbid - you are ….wait for it…..WRONG. What then? You’ve spread your germs about, encouraged others to do the same - and the poster above daughter won’t get her op because her hospital are dealing with critically ill patients when it could have been prevented.

@fromdownwest

All very compelling, but what about China? 😂

Here is a crazy thought, maybe you are wrong?

If you want to wear a piece of cloth across your face for eternity, crack on, but you won’t be forcing it upon me on the basis of a moral obligation.

If you are so concerned about saving people from Covid, maybe start a crusade to reduce obesity in the UK. I am sure you can find some peppers linking Covid related deaths to excess weight.

It’s not ‘me’ that’s decided masks are effective though is it? It’s the global consensus of scientific thought on masks, it’s the NHS guidance - and it’s what you get asked to do when you visit a hospital etc etc.

Where’s your evidence? “ Hmm - we’ll I’ve made an assumption about China and I feel no moral obligation to wear one. “

So me being of little brain - I’d rather follow the NHS advice than some internet random with a hunch. I somehow think the global consensus of advice is likely to be correct.

And yes - let’s both get off social media and go for a bit of exercise👍

Again skirting my question.

I will ask again.

If masks are so effective, why is the country with the most stringent mask mandate still suffering so baldy with Covid. And all other countries that have removed mask mandates, primarily back to 'normal'.

I assume your inabilty to answer this question, is due to the fact that it blows a huge hole in your argument about their effectiveness.

I would've expected enforcement in China to be pretty stringent too, especially in the highest density areas. And as far as I'm aware they didn't have the exemptions system that we did.

Below are a few studies to fulfill your desire for evidence. Let me know when you have read them all.

) Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers, Bundgaard, 2021

SARS-CoV-2 Transmission among Marine Recruits during Quarantine, Letizia, 2020

Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses, Jefferson, 2020

The Impact of Community Masking on COVID-19: A Cluster-Randomized Trial in Bangladesh, Abaluck, 2021
Heneghan et al.

Evidence for Community Cloth Face Masking to Limit the Spread of SARS-CoV-2: A Critical Review, Liu/CATO, 2021

) Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures, CDC/Xiao, 2020

CIDRAP: Masks-for-all for COVID-19 not based on sound data, Brosseau, 2020

Universal Masking in Hospitals in the Covid-19 Era, Klompas/NEJM, 2020

Masks for prevention of viral respiratory infections among health care workers and the public: PEER umbrella systematic review, Dugré, 2020

Effectiveness of personal protective measures in reducing pandemic influenza transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis, Saunders-Hastings, 201

Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation, Shah, 2021

Exercise with facemask; Are we handling a devil’s sword?- A physiological hypothesis, Chandrasekaran, 2020

Surgical face masks in modern operating rooms–a costly and unnecessary ritual?, Mitchell, 1991

Facemask against viral respiratory infections among Hajj pilgrims: A challenging cluster-randomized trial, Alfelali, 2020

Simple respiratory protection–evaluation of the filtration performance of cloth masks and common fabric materials against 20-1000 nm size particles, Rengasamy, 2010

Respiratory performance offered by N95 respirators and surgical masks: human subject evaluation with NaCl aerosol representing bacterial and viral particle size range, Lee, 20

Aerosol penetration and leakage characteristics of masks used in the health care industry, Weber, 1993

Disposable surgical face masks for preventing surgical wound infection in clean surgery, Vincent, 2016

Disposable surgical face masks: a systematic review, Lipp, 2005

Comparison of the Filter Efficiency of Medical Nonwoven Fabrics against Three Different Microbe Aerosols, Shimasaki , 2018

The use of masks and respirators to preventtransmission of influenza: a systematic review of thescientific evidence21) The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence, Bin-Reza, 2012

Facial protection for healthcare workers during pandemics: a scoping review, Godoy, 202

Assessment of Proficiency of N95 Mask Donning Among the General Public in Singapore, Yeung, 2020

Evaluating the efficacy of cloth facemasks in reducing particulate matter exposure, Shakya, 2017

Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: a randomized controlled trial, Jacobs, 2009

N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel, Radonovich, 2019

Does Universal Mask Wearing Decrease or Increase the Spread of COVID-19?, Watts up with that? 2020

Masking: A Careful Review of the Evidence, Alexander, 2021

Community and Close Contact Exposures Associated with COVID-19 Among Symptomatic Adults ≥18 Years in 11 Outpatient Health Care Facilities — United States, July 2020, Fisher, 2020

Impact of non-pharmaceutical interventions against COVID-19 in Europe: a quasi-experimental study, Hunter, 2020

Masking lack of evidence with politics, CEBM, Heneghan, 2020

Transmission of COVID-19 in 282 clusters in Catalonia, Spain: a cohort study, Marks, 2021

Non-pharmaceutical public health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza, WHO, 2020

The Strangely Unscientific Masking of America, Younes, 2020

Facemasks and similar barriers to prevent respiratory illness such as COVID-19: A rapid systematic review, Brainard, 2020

The Year of Disguises, Koops, 2020

Open Schools, Covid-19, and Child and Teacher Morbidity in Sweden, Ludvigsson, 2020

Double-Masking Benefits Are Limited, Japan Supercomputer Finds, Reidy, 2021

etc

@fromdownwest

Because where is the proper analysis to back up your notion? Perhaps there are a multitude of other factors coming into play? Perhaps their vaccine roll out isn’t as good/effective/low vaccine uptake perhaps it’s due to an elderly population.

Why does that now negate the other 22 studies I’ve linked?

Why do you assume scientists worldwide are so brainless that they wouldn’t also have your thought process and start changing their advice on masks?

There is no gotcha there or hole, it’s just such a daft assumption that I didn’t bother directly answering.