For those that are NOT vaxxed - would you get vaxxed only for travel?

[WoodlandWalks123]

I chose not to get vaccinated (I am in low risk category and already had covid). I don’t want to get into the pros and cons of that choice.

Now, DP booked me and DM on a luxury cruise as a surprise present - which would be so lovely and DM is really looking forward to it - it’s a bit of a once in a lifetime sort of thing to be able to go on this / spend time with her and I’ve got it in my mind that life is short and unsure when we would go again.

When he booked, the rules were that from April all vaccination rules would end. Now they have changed their terms and require double vaxx. They will refund money if we cancel due to this change so there is a get out. My DM is vaxxed but obviously I am not.

I am genuinely nervous about getting vaccinated when it’s just so new (in relative vaccine terms) and we don’t know long term effects, and the mRNA technology is also unknown. I am not a die hard anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorist.

I feel that I would only be doing it for this cruise - general air travel / country requirements seem to be opening up and not requiring vaccines increasingly so I don’t think I would need it to go abroad in the fullness of time.

If you have chosen not to be vaccinated, would you get vaccinated to go on a once in a lifetime (but only 4 day) cruise? Or would you get a refund? If you would get vaccinated, which of the vaccines do you think is most benign?

It will probably just end up being like the flu jab which has gone back to being over 65 again rather than over 50, with a choice to pay for it if you are not in vulnerable groups. I didn't have that as I am under 65 and 50-64 were only having it to possibly save the NHS not for my health, I had the Covid vaccination because of my age and it was clear that over 60s were more vulnerable to Covid. I may have more boosters, I may not, that will be a decision for the future, I doubt I would have it to go on holiday, I would just go elsewhere..

Yes I would. I've had loads of vaccines to travel to specific places, such as rabies, typhoid, hepatitis, yellow fever, and taken daily medication to prevent malaria.

@Samarie123 data absolutely is allowed on here so we'd really appreciate it if you could share it?

Yes , every vaccinated person I know had it bad

This is simple anecdotal data which doesn't mean much.
We all have our own stories and anecdotes.
Fwiw my anecdotal data has told me that almost all the people I've known have covid have had it fairly mild, generally the worst hit have had very heavy cold/flu type symptoms but recovered fairly quickly.
I only know of 2 unvaccinated people catching it more recently and they were much worse affected, but one was older and with other health conditions. The other was young and healthy normally. The only others I know very badly hit were those who had it prior to vaccination and different variants. Fortunately I don't have any close contacts who have been seriously affected needing ventilation or it leading to death.

However this is simply anecdotal and although differs to your experience, it still means nothing really.

If you truly have genuine data of course it can be posted here.

I didn't get to choose. Who gets to choose in UK? I had AZ first 2 & Moderna last one.

I have zero vaccine skepticism; I'm sure most vaccines especially Covid ones are safe & wonderous & prevented large numbers of early deaths & (because given to truly vulnerable) were huge help to prevent future lockdowns.

My vaccine resistance is because I object to compulsory vaccinations, the loss of personal autonomy & people at low risk being made to believe they are at high risk. I object to people making Covid anxiety into a moral high ground. I object to almost everything the ZeroCovid lot ever said about best pandemic response. I know people (some of whom were low risk always, all vaccinated to hilt) still consumed with fear about ever testing +SARs-CoV-2. I object to the economic harms & children's education being butchered, caused by very strict lockdown measures. I object to playgrounds being shut for 6 months while old people could go back to playing golf, to police stopping anyone sitting at picnic benches, to pet hamsters being culled (Hong Kong, recently). I object to pseudo science and people insisting their opinions = robust evidence. I object to fear-mongering, hysterical hypotheses and "fear" = the chosen way to make decisions. I'm concerned about govt over-reach on civil liberties. And more. There's a lot of crap happened in name of Covid control.

@Samarie123 I agree - it is BS that natural infection won’t give immunity.

Natural infection will give you some level of immunity - though how much varies widely depending on variant involved, amount of exposure etc etc - reinfection risk is higher and generally the duration is on a par with vaccination or less.

I think the key here is that with vaccination exposure is controlled. Exposure naturally with no prior immunity could be dangerous depending on what happens.

I would really love to see the papers that suggest 18 years of protection from natural infection… seeing as covid has only been around 3 years… this must be a projection?
Where did you get this info please?

Just as a general note here.

My DH, myself and my DC are all vulnerable for various reasons.

Certain family members wouldn’t get vaccinated as they believed a bunch of nonsense on Facebook and things spray painted on walled about vaccines.

Some other vulnerable family members chose to continue seeing them, and put themselves at risk. Personally we felt we couldn’t do this.

We learnt recently they have decided to get vaccinated to go on holiday.

So they didn’t care about vulnerable family members, their own health or their responsibility to their community. But they want to go on a plane.

We have suffered 9 bereavements; 6 direct covid - all ended up getting it due to others around them who didn’t get vaccinated or who didn’t follow rules. And another 3 from various health issues that were not dealt with promptly as the NHS was under so much pressure.

I have respect for personal autonomy. But I can’t understand people not caring. One of my friends ended up on a ventilator - this happened because an delivery driver with covid decided not to isolate.

Restricting decisions to “oh it doesn’t affect me, so I don’t have to do anything” is just not cool. Everyone has a part to play in this. Unfortunately many don’t see that until their own friends and relatives are adversely affected.

@lljkk
So well articulated and I agree on a lot of what you say!

Re. Choosing vaccines - I had Astra Zeneca first (which I would not have chosen, as at the time as there were some concerns, but I wanted my vaccine), then I chose Pfizer for 2nd dose and booster - Pfizer tends to be given by hospitals, moderna and Astra Zeneca from pharmacies due to storage requirements.

Lockdown has not been prevented by giving vaccines to vulnerable.

Lockdown has been prevented by 90% of the population over 12 stepping up and getting vaccinated because this is what is required in order that the vaccine drive is successful.

The long term impact of covid is unknown. They are suggesting things such as heightened risk of dementia, vascular and respiratory conditions, that sort of thing.

A lot of the disease burden of the pandemic will not be evident until say 40yrs+ from now.

Practically they cannot do advanced testing on every individual who contracts Covid. Really oddly they are seeing some who were ventilated walk away with no long term damage, meanwhile some who were asymptomatic have scarring of the lungs and reduced lung capacity they were unaware of. Until the first long covid studies (looking at all age groups/symptomatic/asymptomatic) come out in a few years time (2024/2026) I would be cautious about saying there is no risk whatsoever to people not considered vulnerable. Preliminary data are showing otherwise.

I realise lockdown measures were hard to stomach but they were necessary with a new pathogen.

Re. Killing hamsters, and mink and any other animal acting as a reservoir - this is necessary, if a zoonotic disease has the opportunity of exploiting a new host you run the risk of developing a reverse zoonosis (where the pathogen is passed from human to animal)…. This is problematic because in adapting to the new host a lot of mutation may occur. If the virus retains the ability to infect us and jumps back these new mutations acquired in the hamster/mink/whatever may induce more serious disease in us. At the moment fatality is about 1-2%, could you imagine that jumping to 10% - sorry hamsters sayonara.

I get what you’re saying over Covid control. Thankfully we are not in China and having our kids ripped from us for zero covid. That is insane. But I do think the response - while not perfect - has been guided by the science and the consensus of the all public health organisations from here to Australia to the US has been that we’ve done the right thing in response to the threat.

@Robinni Recently an anti-vaxer was telling me they were "immune" to covid because they had been infected once. These people think "immune" = lifelong protection. It doesnt. We should stop talking about immunity unless it's prefaced by temporary or start talking about protection.

Neither vaccines or infection will give anyone lifelong protection and not even the ridiculous claim of 18 years. With the exception of a few people who seem to have genetic resistance it is likely that people will be infected multiple times with the potential for the damage caused by infection to be cumulative.

We have a disease whose long term effects are unknown and which is not always milder with reinfection. Vaccination is known to provide some protection against both reinfection and against severe disease. If people want to run the risk of getting worse damage each time they are reinfected that is up to them but they need to know they will be reinfected.

@alreadytaken

Respectfully I don’t think we should stop talking about immunity.

We should educate people on what immunity is.

A start would be ensuring children are at least educated to GCSE level and none of this watered down “double award” science…. This is where the problem… anyway the lack of education in the country is a separate issue.

Digressions aside, immunity does not equal invincible.

Neither vaccines or infection will give anyone lifelong protection and not even the ridiculous claim of 18 years. With the exception of a few people who seem to have genetic resistance it is likely that people will be infected multiple times with the potential for the damage caused by infection to be cumulative.

Everything you said here is correct. Agree 18 yrs bananas hence asked pp to produce where they got this from.

Perhaps if symptoms of covid included bleeding from the orifices like haemorrhagic fever viruses they would take it seriously. Right now it’s dismissed as they can’t see it and the science takes time to produce information on long term effects.

I think the 18 year thing is because some people have been found to still have antibodies from the original SARS (or was it MERS?)

MERS in 2 patients

www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18450-4

Above paper looks at antibody mediated immunity to coronaviruses.

“Nearly all transmission models of SARS-CoV-2 assume that infection produces immunity to reinfection for durations of at least 1 year

However, knowledge of the dynamics and nature of immune response to SARS-CoV-2 infection is limited, and the scientific basis for durable immunity, upon which these key public health and clinical strategies are dependent, is not well developed.

Most long-term studies found that SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV IgG waned over time (typically detectable up to at least a year), while others found detectable levels of IgG 3 years post symptom onset.”

From what I’ve read Covid is roughly in line with this immunity waning about 6-12 months post vaccination or natural infection. But they are seeing those who’ve had both have sometimes in excess of 18 months protection.

Sorry just checked the study I was thinking of found antibodies 18 MONTHS after infection with MERS…. I haven’t seen anything beyond 3yrs for CoV, typically a yr.

I would say - how long do plan to live? Don't spend another year sitting around to wait and see how it will all pan out. Take the risk you perceive, get the jabs, go on the cruise and live your one and only life to the fullest. The vaccines are a passport to that in more than one way and beyond just one cruise.

We have suffered 9 bereavements; 6 direct covid - all ended up getting it due to others around them who didn’t get vaccinated or who didn’t follow rules. @Robinni I'm sorry to hear that you have suffered so many losses. I'm interested to know how you can be so sure all the cases came from unvaccinated or non-rule-following individuals though? Surely you are aware that vaccinated/rule-abiding people can also catch Covid and pass it on? I also found your comments about the delivery driver a bit blinkered and judgemental. Maybe he couldn't afford to take time off to isolate/recover which is more down to lack of government/employer support than his own lack of morality. I agree with you @lljkk - I've found the behaviour of governments worldwide appalling and found the complete disregard for civil liberties quite sinister. I haven't been vaccinated (despite having GCSEs!) and certainly won't be changing my mind in order to go on holiday.

@nojudgementhere I think I’ve made abundantly clear any time I have posted that covid CAN be passed on by vaccinated individuals.

Just as I’ve made clear that unvacc with covid may transmit a higher viral load and shed virus for a longer period of time, therefore present more of a risk to others.

In the case of the 6 people I mentioned.

• 2 elderly, family caring didn’t abide by initial lockdown rules


• 1 elderly in care home, unvacc care workers brought it in, 4 dead within month


• 1 retired attended party, person attending had covid, knew about it and transmitted to many people there


• 1 retired didn’t want to abide by lockdown rules themselves as wanted to see people


• 1 young but CV family insisted on seeing another in household

I hope that explains it in the instances above and the friend who got from delivery driver all vulnerable by age or health condition. Contact limited - none were working, or even went out to shop or socialise. I just see it as needless really.

Obviously you can’t avoid all deaths, but deaths due to people being wreckless it has made it sadder tbh.

Poor taste that you’ve made me have to explain the circumstances surrounding death of people just because you want to prove a point. Well done you.

Don't spend another year sitting around to wait and see how it will all pan out

I am unvaccinated and had three months travelling abroad last year and am just about to head off again. It's perfectly possible.
Admittedly I don't have my sights set on a cruise.

@Robinni You chose to go into detail to prove your point. I really wasn't expecting you to divulge anything you were uncomfortable with. With regards to the care workers/delivery driver - I'm still slightly confused as to how you were aware of their vaccination status or decision not to isolate but please don't feel under any pressure to explain further if you don't want to. There are many reasons people didn't get vaccinated / were unable to isolate and in my opinion it doesn't necessarily make them bad or immoral people who deliberately set out to recklessly cause harm. Many people caught Covid from vaccinated/rule-following people too unfortunately and I don't see how trying to apportion blame helps anybody.

@nojudgementhere

your exact words

I'm interested to know how you can be so sure all the cases came from unvaccinated or non-rule-following individuals though?

Care workers were bank workers, very young who didn’t give a %#*%.
All the people who worked in the home were absolutely devastated as they were all so careful and had a close relationship with the residents and their families. It became apparent where the covid came from because the bank workers reported their positive status. Everyone else was testing negative and family were not allowed access at that point.

The delivery driver was apparent via track and trace after friend ended up in hospital.

I don’t think I’m trying to apportion blame I just don’t really understand all the need for drama when we are privileged enough in our part of the world to be offered multiple vaccines to avert negative consequences and to have had financial schemes to support people.

I’ve had a lot of friends working in hospitals tearing their hair out saying “these people have absolutely no need to be here” as majority of patients unvacc.

It just seems very needless.

But I don’t want to get into an argument about it. I respect there are people out there anti-authoritarian/don’t trust science or whatever the reason is. And as long as we have the 90% who do get jabbed life can go on.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to conflate a mistrust of pharmaceautical companies/government policies with an overall mistrust of science. The two things are not equivalent and science is a big topic.

@nojudgementhere sorry I didn’t and you fully

** delivery driver had tested positive and was supposed to be isolating, somehow my friend got hold of this information. I can’t remember if he came to apologise or whatever but they were known to each other in the local area

** bank workers revealed they weren’t vacc when half the residents in home ended up sick and 4 died. Info passed on to families with apologies.

Yes but the the government policy is BASED on the science and the evidence base is absolutely enormous. An absolute tsunami of scientific literature as SO much money has been ploughed into this. It’s not one namby pamby study with 9 participants… the studies themselves are huge and numerous.

Yes pharma are out to make their money, but the studies on efficacy/safety/transmission dynamics etc etc are not solely funded and carried out by pharmaceutical companies. It’s universities, health institutions, NGOs… yes some is research is gov funded but they have to do that as they need to understand what we’re facing long term and for pandemic preparedness in future.

It was called coronavirus before covid. Look up coronavirus. It’s been around for decades in an 1920s encyclopaedia it said coronavirus was just a common cold.
THEY changed it to covid!!! Hmmm why is that do you think?
I think I’ve answered your question 😎