Vulnerable people

[SantaClawsServiette]

I keep seeing people on threads who are worried or upset because they feel that lifting restrictions will make people who have health issues more vulnerable.

What confuses me about this is that a big part of the reason for lifting restrictions is that they already are not working. The reason everyone is getting omicron now in such numbers is because it is so contagious.

Masks and distancing as we've been doing don't work. Even N95 masks are not all that great, people working in hospitals wearing them are getting infected too.

Isolation doesn't work because most vaccinated people are asymptomatic, and testing isn't that accurate. Increasingly many people are not testing anyway. So there are lots and lots of people with covid around everywhere - if that weren't the case cases wouldn't be so high.

Tracing contacts is no longer possible or useful because everyone is being exposed all the time.

The vaccines aren't doing much to prevent spread.

So my question is this - given that to be really safe from catching covid the vulnerable have to stay home and avoid contacts now, how will listing restrictions change that?

And fyi most other countries request ffp2 masks which are far better.we could do this and it would cut transmission massively. Studies say by as much as 80% even when not fit tested and with by general public.

@Aimeehedge

I am out and about and managing to “avoid exposure right now”

When my child is allowed to sit in class with positive kids and my husband has to sit in an office with positive co workers and I have to sit in an office of positive co workers then obviously the risk will be far greater. I I want to go to a restaurant or shop and people are positive the risk will be greater.

Stop spreading misinformation.

How are you avoiding exposure? There are covid positive people all over the place.

Well I haven’t caught it in recent months have I despite it being rife.

Perhaps I have been exposed to an asymptomatic person or few and luckily dodged a low viral load.

But the new plans will involve being exposed to many, many more people who will be more contagious.

If you’re standing in a room or 50 and 1 had Covid unknown this is obviously far less exposure than standing in a room of 50 and 10 have mild and symptomatic Covid.

The latter is far more likely to result in You getting it. It’s a far higher level of exposure.

To argue otherwise is defying basic logic.

If I sent my kids to school with DandV instead of waiting 48 hours, they’d spread it to a lot of children instead of just the one or two they might have spread it to before they had symptoms.

See also chicken pox.

It’s just basic public health.

I do understand that this is a total head fuck for people though. The fear that was whipped up initially was always going to be difficult to overcome. The positioning of restrictions (rather than the development of treatments or even vaccines) as the 'moral' approach to covid will be hard to unpack

This is very true.

It's not particularly true if you are immune suppressed and even 4 jabs might not provoke an immune response.

Acting in ways that protect the vulnerable remains morally good

@Aimeehedge

I am out and about and managing to “avoid exposure right now”

When my child is allowed to sit in class with positive kids and my husband has to sit in an office with positive co workers and I have to sit in an office of positive co workers then obviously the risk will be far greater. I I want to go to a restaurant or shop and people are positive the risk will be greater.

Stop spreading misinformation.

You already are! Your child has been sitting in class / school with infected people. There will have been infected people In your husbands office. You will have passed many infected people if you have visited any larger shops or supermarkets. Your response is a prime example of why people are going to find it so hard to shift their thinking. That is what the OP is trying to say. Imagine going back to jan 2020, going about your daily business and your child going to school. Imagine trying to avoid every person who has a runny nose, or who may develop one within the next few days. Imagine your child in school avoiding every child in school who has a runny nose or who would get one in the next few days. The only answer would have been to not go to work / shops / school. It’s the same for omicron now. It’s everywhere. If you are currently mixing in work / school / shops you will be exposed multiple times a week from people who don’t even know they have it!

@MangyInseam OP specifically mentioned that N95 masks don’t work. I am replying to her false claim.

It's unlikely that people who have tested positive are in a classroom.

Asymptomatic/presymtomatic people are indeed always among us, which is why the advice to the most vulnerable continues to be to avoid crowded indoors spaces, to only mix with the fully vaccinated and have visitors to their home wear masks.

It's hard enough to do that - to ensure only distanced contact with people who are likely to have only a low viral load if infected.
Pits not remotely the same as having people who have tested positive out and about - higher viral load, expelled with greater force when coughing.

Imagining good night back to a time when the disease did not exist isn't really useful - most of the current critically vulnerable did not need to do what you suggest as because there was no need. The diseases were not as prevalent, the colds simply do not carry the risks of covid, and for other diseases there were significantly better (and, crucially, more available ) treatments.

I am out and about and managing to “avoid exposure right now”

In fairness, that's nothing more than luck. Ensuring that you avoid exposure

And fyi most other countries request ffp2 masks

Most? Who are you talking about here? I can think of Germany, that's it. Their cases continued to climb.

Acting in ways that protect the vulnerable remains morally good

A moral position would try to balance the needs of all the vulnerable. Poor families and children are suffering the most from long periods of isolation away from work/school.

It's unlikely that people who have tested positive are in a classroom.

It's very possible indeed that positive cases are in classrooms - you're infectious two days before even developing symptoms or testing positive. Additionally there'll be kids not testing at all as their parents need to go to work and/or they can't afford to miss more school!

@Aimeehedge

Well I haven’t caught it in recent months have I despite it being rife.

Perhaps I have been exposed to an asymptomatic person or few and luckily dodged a low viral load.

But the new plans will involve being exposed to many, many more people who will be more contagious.

If you’re standing in a room or 50 and 1 had Covid unknown this is obviously far less exposure than standing in a room of 50 and 10 have mild and symptomatic Covid.

The latter is far more likely to result in You getting it. It’s a far higher level of exposure.

To argue otherwise is defying basic logic.

If I sent my kids to school with DandV instead of waiting 48 hours, they’d spread it to a lot of children instead of just the one or two they might have spread it to before they had symptoms.

See also chicken pox.

It’s just basic public health.

This.

As ever some people seem to struggle with nuance these days. They thinks a bit of exposure is the same as mass exposure and if you can’t have no exposure you might as well have maximum exposure. They can’t ever understand the massive grey are in the middle and the complexities associated within it. It’s worrying how little critical thinking some people have.

@Vanderlayinfustries

As ever some people seem to struggle with nuance these days. They thinks a bit of exposure is the same as mass exposure and if you can’t have no exposure you might as well have maximum exposure. They can’t ever understand the massive grey are in the middle and the complexities associated within it. It’s worrying how little critical thinking some people have.

Agreed.

It’s like saying wearing seatbelts is pointless because some people still die in car crashes who wear them.

The OP is so full of lies and misinformation it's difficult to know where to start.

Covid is rife in schools, of course there are lots of exposure - teachers have been saying it for months! People have turned a blind eye because it doesn’t affect them. Now it will and there’s uproar.

@AndAnotherNewOne

The OP is so full of lies and misinformation it's difficult to know where to start.

Much respect to those who have tried to unpick it!!!

@Vanderlayinfustries

As ever some people seem to struggle with nuance these days. They thinks a bit of exposure is the same as mass exposure and if you can’t have no exposure you might as well have maximum exposure. They can’t ever understand the massive grey are in the middle and the complexities associated within it. It’s worrying how little critical thinking some people have.

Yes, it's like saying oh I've eaten a biscuit now so might just as well give up on that diet and have a cake every day.

Obviously people are catching covid still and some covid positive people are not isolating now, either through choice or because they don't realise they have covid. But at least the current rules mean that those whose workplaces may generally not be too happy for them to take time off sick can't insist people come into work with covid. That protection will now go.

My DH is currently undergoing cancer treatment. As well as being more vulnerable to covid, a positive test will delay treatment and increase the risk of the cancer spreading. I have to go out to work so we've had to make the difficult decision of us distancing at home which basically means me stuck in the spare bedroom when I'm not at work. This will have to continue until his treatment finishes or the covid risk is a lot lower than it is now.

As someone with no antibodies despite 4 vaccines I will sum up the OPs point.

'If the vulnerable are already stuffed , why are they complaining about things getting more dangerous? They're stuffed anyway'.

That's what I take from it anyway.

It's fine to feel that way op, but have some sympathy to the people who doesn't feel like you, Op.
There are people who are already feeling anxious, you don't need to kick them even more.

The answer is the more virus is circulating the more chance my child will catch it at school and pass it to me. Or my partner at work. Or hospital staff.

I'm not doing hairdresser, dentist etc, just outside walks. Meeting people outside.

So shielding is like a bucket of water with holes in, it can't stop leaking. Boris has just drilled a few more large holes in it.

I'm not enjoying being cut off from job, friends, extended family, travel, fitness classes, restaurants, pubs, supermarkets, shops...but I am not wanting the world to stop for me.

I do think that isolating positive symptomatic cases is a basic measure which already happens for example with dysentery.

I also think we should have access to PREinfection treatment like everyone else, in place of vaccines. Other countries do give evusheld, our government should do it

The most vulnerable are the only group left unprotected PREinfection and I find that wrong, omicron is not milder for the unvaccinated.

Forgot to say zero antibodies after 4 jabs, so genuinely at high risk, warned by specialists etc.

@Vanderlayinfustries @nordica well put.

Are there any stats that specify how many immunocompromised people are actually dying of Omicron? I know a highly immunocompromised person who 4 jabs did nothing for, who then went on to catch Omicron despite shielding and was very briefly unwell with mild symptoms.

@BluebellsGreenbells

Covid is rife in schools, of course there are lots of exposure - teachers have been saying it for months! People have turned a blind eye because it doesn’t affect them. Now it will and there’s uproar.

What uproar is there?