Vulnerable people

[SantaClawsServiette]

I keep seeing people on threads who are worried or upset because they feel that lifting restrictions will make people who have health issues more vulnerable.

What confuses me about this is that a big part of the reason for lifting restrictions is that they already are not working. The reason everyone is getting omicron now in such numbers is because it is so contagious.

Masks and distancing as we've been doing don't work. Even N95 masks are not all that great, people working in hospitals wearing them are getting infected too.

Isolation doesn't work because most vaccinated people are asymptomatic, and testing isn't that accurate. Increasingly many people are not testing anyway. So there are lots and lots of people with covid around everywhere - if that weren't the case cases wouldn't be so high.

Tracing contacts is no longer possible or useful because everyone is being exposed all the time.

The vaccines aren't doing much to prevent spread.

So my question is this - given that to be really safe from catching covid the vulnerable have to stay home and avoid contacts now, how will listing restrictions change that?

where have the government stated 'a big part of lifting restrictions is that they are already not working'

where has this been stated?

Vaccines do reduce the spread but only for about 10 weeks, they reduce the likelihood of an infected person needing hospital treatment for much longer.

Covid is a continuous illness, like norovirus or chicken pox we don’t go out with them or go back to school 48 hours afterwards or they would spread more quickly. It doesn’t stop transmission but it does reduce it.

*contagious

@GirlInACountrySong

where have the government stated 'a big part of lifting restrictions is that they are already not working'

where has this been stated?

It's the reasoning given by many places where restrictions are being loosed, though you have to read the small print about it. Which is a mistake I think - they've made it hard in many cases for people to understand the change in direction.

But it's the case. We wouldn't have an omicron spike if the restrictions worked.

@Duracellbunnywannabe

Vaccines do reduce the spread but only for about 10 weeks, they reduce the likelihood of an infected person needing hospital treatment for much longer.

Covid is a continuous illness, like norovirus or chicken pox we don’t go out with them or go back to school 48 hours afterwards or they would spread more quickly. It doesn’t stop transmission but it does reduce it.

This isn't all that relevant to what I've said.

Yes, vaccines have some effect. But at the same time, even in places with very high vaccination there is a lot of spread.

That being the case, the question in the OP.

sorry that explains nothing....small print? where?

if you are stating things as fact then please explain properly

It is relevant because what you said is factually incorrect. You said vaccines do not reduce transmission when they do.

If you cant understand that there is an increased risk if more people who are covid positive start wandering around, therefore exposure to an increased viral load and in essential places where before people had some protection through others wearing masks then I’m not sure how else it can be explained.

I hope someone else can explain it to you in another way. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

Covid is a continuous illness, like norovirus or pox

Covid is indeed a contagious disease, but why is it 'like' norovirus or pox?

Why is covid not 'like' the flu or cold where people who are have mild symptoms or are asymptomatic don't generally isolate.

The weight of evidence shows that masks do work.

It doesn't mean zero transmission, just less than there is in an unmasked environment

Keeping masks in medical settings (where the vulnerable have to be, and where the usually robust have to go when temporarily vulnerable) sensible, as is keeping them on public transporting- especially poorly ventilated underground systems, which are germ soup,at the best of times.

Keeping transmission low is in everyone's interests. And means that the vulnerable might get a chance to do something other than merely exist

It shows that masks did work well with pre-Omicron strains, which isn't quite the same thing.

@Duracellbunnywannabe

It is relevant because what you said is factually incorrect. You said vaccines do not reduce transmission when they do.

If you cant understand that there is an increased risk if more people who are covid positive start wandering around, therefore exposure to an increased viral load and in essential places where before people had some protection through others wearing masks then I’m not sure how else it can be explained.

I hope someone else can explain it to you in another way. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

No, I didn't say that at all. I said they aren't doing much to reduce spread.

That implies they are doing something. It's been clear from early on that vaccination only somewhat affects spread of omicron and you can also look at the omicron spikes everywhere which make it pretty clear. That's not controversial.

Why come on to a thread to make a point that doesn't address the topic, and also without bothering to read all the words?

is that a name change fail there??

@nether

The weight of evidence shows that masks do work.

It doesn't mean zero transmission, just less than there is in an unmasked environment

Keeping masks in medical settings (where the vulnerable have to be, and where the usually robust have to go when temporarily vulnerable) sensible, as is keeping them on public transporting- especially poorly ventilated underground systems, which are germ soup,at the best of times.

Keeping transmission low is in everyone's interests. And means that the vulnerable might get a chance to do something other than merely exist

Masks that are not specialized fitted masks like those used in places like burn units do not work well for omicron.

But again, please think about the question.We know omicron is everywhere. We know this because of how many people are catching it. It's now infected so many people that we are coming out the other side. That is not because of measures, it's because pretty much everyone has been exposed.

Anyone is is vulnerable who is out and about is being exposed just like everyone else. Right now.

@GirlInACountrySong

is that a name change fail there??

Oh, yes, sorry. I noticed it was still a Christmas name and got rid of it. They should still all look blue though I think? Or whatever your colour scheme is.

@GirlInACountrySong

sorry that explains nothing....small print? where?

if you are stating things as fact then please explain properly

Many many health authorities in many countries have made it clear that we are all being exposed to omicron. You can read the statements by the public health leads in Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Finland.

You can also look at the number of cases.

Anyone who is vulnerable and is going out in public is being exposed right now.

I'm CEV and I no longer give a shit if I die. Currently on holiday.

@Hdhr8jsj

I'm CEV and I no longer give a shit if I die. Currently on holiday.

I think that's a reasonable choice.

Do you feel like the restrictions like masking and isolation make you less vulnerable than without them? And if so, would you prefer they stay?

In any case, no one is talking about unvaccinating everyone who is already vaccinated, so the efficacy of vaccination is pretty irrelevant. That is not what will change.

Anyone is is vulnerable who is out and about is being exposed just like everyone else. Right now

Except of course the group asked to shield, who are being told not to go out and about - avoiding busy indoors places (which can include public transport), nit needing people until they are 14 days post 2nd vax, requiring LFTs before meeting people, having all visitors to the house to wear masks indoors.

Masks that are not specialized fitted masks like those used in places like burn units do not work well for omicron

Remember, one of the main ways masks work is to contain the exhalations of the infected person. So it's not a case of getting other people to wear a super-duper mask. It's about everyone wearing a mask and reducing (not eliminating) the free flow of exhalations, and opening windows etc to improve ventilation. All of which reduce the viral load a person might encounter, thus having a major impact on likelihood of catching it (and if caught, surviving it, because in earlier variants, amount of initial exposure did have a link to severity)

Continuing to require masks in medical settings and on certain forms of public transport (such as the Tube, which is very poorly ventilated in the underground sections) barely impacts on other people's quality of life, but makes a massive difference to safety for those in need of hospital treatment for any reason

And given that other notifiable diseases have required quarantine, I don't see why covid shouid be different. Even non-notifiable diseases have norms of 'stay home for 48hours minimum, or 24 hours after temperature normalises/last vomit, whichever is longer' and we don't find those outrageous. And those include diseases in much lower circulation, and which are not more risky than covid, but which we still don't want reaching high levels. Why should covid be different?

Yes I think what you're saying is (mostly) true OP. There clearly isn't any point in trying to control spread as has been demonstrated in country after country. Even in the Netherlands, under a proper lockdown, numbers kept going up.

Thankfully we are in a much better position with regards to severe disease. And hopefully with new treatments that will continue to improve.

I do understand that this is a total head fuck for people though. The fear that was whipped up initially was always going to be difficult to overcome. The positioning of restrictions (rather than the development of treatments or even vaccines) as the 'moral' approach to covid will be hard to unpack.

There was hope that the vaccines would be sterilising or close to it. That hasn't panned out, but that doesn't mean we should underestimate the total game changer that they have been.

I think many people still want to feel like 'something is being done' and it'll be a slow realisation that there really isn't any point. All restrictions have their costs. I don't think we should be doing anything purely for show.

I'd like to see a big focus on improving people's overall health now. God knows it's needed.

Masks do work. My FFP2/N95 mask prevented me catching covid when omicron literally ripped through the workplace over two weeks whilst I was with them in a very enclosed space, sitting in close proximity to one another and working in groups together. I was the only one masked and the only one who didn’t catch it. Anecdotal evidence but it’s widely supported by strong scientific evidence but you choose to ignore it.
Mask has to be fitted properly with a tight seal and no leaks for it to provide you with protection.

And given that other notifiable diseases have required quarantine, I don't see why covid shouid be different. Even non-notifiable diseases have norms of 'stay home for 48hours minimum, or 24 hours after temperature normalises/last vomit, whichever is longer'

One reason would be that the cost/benefit analysis is very different. Two days may make a significant difference to noro transmission, but fuck all to covid. The 7 day period that might actually impact transmission is much, much more disruptive to our day to day lives. Plus there's so much asymptotic spreading anyway.

@nether

Anyone is is vulnerable who is out and about is being exposed just like everyone else. Right now

Except of course the group asked to shield, who are being told not to go out and about - avoiding busy indoors places (which can include public transport), nit needing people until they are 14 days post 2nd vax, requiring LFTs before meeting people, having all visitors to the house to wear masks indoors.

Masks that are not specialized fitted masks like those used in places like burn units do not work well for omicron

Remember, one of the main ways masks work is to contain the exhalations of the infected person. So it's not a case of getting other people to wear a super-duper mask. It's about everyone wearing a mask and reducing (not eliminating) the free flow of exhalations, and opening windows etc to improve ventilation. All of which reduce the viral load a person might encounter, thus having a major impact on likelihood of catching it (and if caught, surviving it, because in earlier variants, amount of initial exposure did have a link to severity)

Continuing to require masks in medical settings and on certain forms of public transport (such as the Tube, which is very poorly ventilated in the underground sections) barely impacts on other people's quality of life, but makes a massive difference to safety for those in need of hospital treatment for any reason

And given that other notifiable diseases have required quarantine, I don't see why covid shouid be different. Even non-notifiable diseases have norms of 'stay home for 48hours minimum, or 24 hours after temperature normalises/last vomit, whichever is longer' and we don't find those outrageous. And those include diseases in much lower circulation, and which are not more risky than covid, but which we still don't want reaching high levels. Why should covid be different?

Well, yes, clearly people who don't go out now aren't exposed. If they aren't going out now nothing will change for them.

TBH at this point I think telling anyone to shield is very dishonest and unkind. People can do that if they choose as always but people need to understand that they must make choices about long term risk now.

As far as masks, I think if it was left to transport and hospitals you would probably see many people accept that. But the underlyying issue is that despite your comments about masks, they are not actually stopping omicron in the way you think. They seemed somewhat effective for earlier variants - though any estimates by experts I've seen are not as impressive as many people seem to think - but they are not working for omicron.

I live in an area with very strict masking, all indoor places, no exceptions, including four year old in schools.Also outdoors in any place with crowds. My Scottish friend was shocked when she came to visit.

Guess what - our omicron wave looks like it does everywhere else.

@VaccineSticker

Masks do work. My FFP2/N95 mask prevented me catching covid when omicron literally ripped through the workplace over two weeks whilst I was with them in a very enclosed space, sitting in close proximity to one another and working in groups together. I was the only one masked and the only one who didn’t catch it. Anecdotal evidence but it’s widely supported by strong scientific evidence but you choose to ignore it. Mask has to be fitted properly with a tight seal and no leaks for it to provide you with protection.

Most people do not, and will not wear those kinds of masks all the time. Nor do most have special fitting available, and they are costly and have to be changed out several times a day.

So we just aren't talking about those kinds of masks. We are talking about regular disposable or cloth ones for the most part. Some may do the "fake" good ones, but they are still not as effective and they are uncomfortable enough that many won't.

It is great for certain people that they can do that but it's not a realistic public health approach.

I am out and about and managing to “avoid exposure right now”

When my child is allowed to sit in class with positive kids and my husband has to sit in an office with positive co workers and I have to sit in an office of positive co workers then obviously the risk will be far greater. I I want to go to a restaurant or shop and people are positive the risk will be greater.

Stop spreading misinformation.