Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

[idontknow54789]

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

@Tealightsandd

I'm very sorry about your father *@Queuing4Fergs*

When you talk of collateral damage though. Do you think it's better to have a UK style. A whopping 180,000 people killed by Covid (and counting) collateral damage?

The poor, the disabled, the elderly, and some minority ethnic groups are at higher risk from Covid. Do people on this thread think these groups should all be collateral damage?

It's utterly utterly awful what the pandemic has done. The shame of it is that had everywhere in the world done the same as NZ, there wouldn't have been so many people either unable to visit loved ones and/or losing them prematurely to SARS-COV-2. It would've been over on a few months.

Whether the MIQ could've been managed slightly differently, now that is something perhaps you're right about? I expect it's very very difficult to set-up and maintain particularly in such an extreme emergency situation as a pandemic. Perhaps some tweaking should've happened, if possible. But, certainly the alternative - the UK approach - was horrific.

I really am very sorry for your loss

180,000 were not killed by Covid in the UK. That has been clearly reported on.

@Pootle40

180,000 were not killed by Covid in the UK. That has been clearly reported on.

Where exactly? Are you relying on the 17,000 figure that's been doing the rounds? If so, then my friend's
friend with well controlled diabetes and lived a normal life until they caught Covid and died as a result of the infection's impact isn't a Covid death? They don't count?

blog.ons.gov.uk/2022/01/26/to-say-only-17000-people-have-died-from-covid-19-is-highly-misleading/amp/

Yes I know of similar cases but still 180,000 were not killed by Covid whether you knew a healthy person who died.

Again, though, the collateral damage done by NZ's policy could have been so much less than it was if NZers outside the country had been considered part of the team. Adequate resourcing for MIQ, a sensible queueing system (rather than a lottery), with exceptions for the ill and dying or displaced, rather than the All Blacks (how many times did they secure places?!) and the Wiggles, expanding the capacity and security of MIQ by creating purpose built facilities, allowing at least a couple of free visits a year for citizens...none of this is rocket science, and would still have allowed for the fantastic, safe couple of years NZ has had. Would probably even have avoided the Auckland 2021 lockdown, because Gladys wouldn't have been able to give Auckland delta quite so easily with a specially built quarantine facility that was fit for purpose. The problem standing in the way was lack of will, and to be blunt, lack of pressure.

I'll be honest that I find the Bellis case infuriating, because Belgium hasn't come under anything like the same scrutiny as New Zealand, and they wouldn't let her in either, despite her partner being from there. Bellis didn't want to go to Australia, where she has the absolute right to reside and give birth because her partner wasn't allowed in. Why is it then exclusively NZ's responsibility? I think it is a very well played media piece by someone who knew what she was doing, and that it has forced the NZ government's hand. Probably ultimately a good outcome, but a terrible basis for policy, and could have been avoided with a well-resources quarantine system, AND an exit plan long before now.

Why is it then exclusively NZ's responsibility?

Because she's a citizen. I find it a bit gobsmacking that you're questioning this. She wasn't anyone else's responsibility but NZ's. Belgium welcomed her for as long as the terms of their internationally agreed visa allowed, for example.

Closing doors to citizens is appalling. As you say, it could have been managed while maintaining stringent safety measures. The bottom line is they decided to actively screw over NZers outside the country rather than put in the hard yards to do MIQ properly.

[quote treeflowercat]@Pootle40

180,000 were not killed by Covid in the UK. That has been clearly reported on.

Where exactly? Are you relying on the 17,000 figure that's been doing the rounds? If so, then my friend's
friend with well controlled diabetes and lived a normal life until they caught Covid and died as a result of the infection's impact isn't a Covid death? They don't count?

blog.ons.gov.uk/2022/01/26/to-say-only-17000-people-have-died-from-covid-19-is-highly-misleading/amp/

[/quote]
The office of national statistics (ons)
17,500 died ‘ of ‘ covid
Others died ‘ with ‘ covid
People that test positive within 28 days of death are put into the covid deaths bracket.
It’s a ridiculous way of recording deaths and an enquiry should be made in future

So why is Bellis' partner NZ's responsibility then? Because he has also been granted an MIQ spot and a visa. Belgium equally could have been lenient with its measures but chose not to. There is something rotten in the way that NZ, but not Belgium, have been questioned about their borders work.

So why is Bellis' partner NZ's responsibility then? Because he has also been granted an MIQ spot and a visa.

I never said he was. That's up to NZ.

Belgium equally could have been lenient with its measures but chose not to.

I don't see why they should be under pressure to pick up the pieces of NZ's badly handled policies. As I said they abided by the terms of the contracts they agreed with them.

There is something rotten in the way that NZ, but not Belgium, have been questioned about their borders work.

This doesn't make any sense. Belgium isn't excluding its own citizens.

I'll be honest that I find the Bellis case infuriating, because Belgium hasn't come under anything like the same scrutiny as New Zealand, and they wouldn't let her in either, despite her partner being from there. Bellis didn't want to go to Australia, where she has the absolute right to reside and give birth because her partner wasn't allowed in. Why is it then exclusively NZ's responsibility?

Speaking as someone who practices immigration and nationality law, this is a pretty extraordinary take. Bellis is NZ's responsibility precisely because she's a citizen. NZ has much greater obligations towards her than any other state does. Belgium haven't come under anything like the same scrutiny because they aren't behaving in anything like the same way.

I agree with you that she's likely playing the media and doing all this on purpose, but none of this would have to happen in the first place if NZ were willing to take basic responsibility for their own citizens.

@Tealightsandd

Next thing we'll have people complaining about the extreme measures of incarcerating drink drivers

How is a drunk driver who has committed a crime in any way comparable to a person who has contracted a virus? Wow. You’ll literally defend the indefensible.

@CallItLoneliness

So why is Bellis' partner NZ's responsibility then? Because he has also been granted an MIQ spot and a visa. Belgium equally could have been lenient with its measures but chose not to. There is something rotten in the way that NZ, but not Belgium, have been questioned about their borders work.

Because she is a NZ citizen. Its really that simple. NZ has unilaterally revoked the rights of its own citizens to enter or leave the country. The Bellis case is not an isolated incident.

In the first phase of a pandemic - yes its the equivalent of a war footing but abandoning your own citizens so completely and keeping families forcibly separated long after vaccines and treatments make it possible to at least consider compassionate cases is frankly not a good look.

When she tried to make a virtue out of the late vaccine roll out one of my colleagues pointed out she was boasting about keeping his family forcibly separated. His mother died without ever seeing her grandchildren and without her children able to visit her as she was dying, long after vaccines had made travel possible in every other country. In his case, like Bellis's Ardern's computer sez no - or as he put - perhaps he should have applied to DJ her upmarket wedding.

Gotta agree with other’s NZ citizens are NZ’s responsibility not any other country
I’ve seen a few times of NZ citizens outside NZ being told by NZ to go to other countries instead. There was one on this thread I think planning to go to U.K. on a tourist visa as U.K. will let her in when her own country NZ won’t. That is bonkers!
I remember reading about an Aussie woman that couldn’t get back to Australia back in 2020 ( she had come to the U.K. as a tourist) and she was going to apply for U.K. citizenship as she felt the U.K. had treated her better than her own country. That boggled my mind. Not sure whether she did / did not do this but crazy to think she was seriously considering it.
I think people outside NZ are more aware of the draconian nature of the border policy than those inside as we hear their stories, work with them and have them as friends.

@Sundayvibes the "only 17,500 died "of" covid " myth was debunked weeks ago. Yes lots of people who died of COVID had underlying conditions. Lots of people do have underlying conditions. But many were basically doing perfectly well and expected to live many more years before they caught COVID which killed them.

An article in the NZ press on the subject of MIQ has been published by Virginia Fallon.
It’s been shared on Dan Wootens Twitter page.
I’m not sure how to share the story though.
Would be interested to here the thoughts of people from NZ

www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127663968/when-being-kind-stops-at-the-border--how-miq-made-kiwis-mean

I think as well, supporters of New Zealand policy haven't necessarily thought about how reliant it was on the rest of the world taking on part of the responsibilities of the NZ state for it. Lots of Kiwis abroad, I think I read somewhere the majority, have citizenship or at least a long term visa in their country of residence. But plenty didn't.

Those on shorter term visas who weren't able to get back in were reliant on either overstaying, going to wherever they could be taken as a visitor or on other countries making provision for NZ citizens to stay longer term, as a direct result of NZ government policy. That's actually quite extraordinary.

The UK for example introduced a provision where people whose visas were expiring but were covid stranded could stay. That included people from lots of countries in lots of circumstances, sometimes as a result of UK policy too. It has also extended to New Zealanders who would legally have been allowed to travel from the UK but couldn't get back into their home country.

Essentially it was the UK state stepping in as the New Zealand government abdicated responsibility. Anyone who's had many dealings with the UK Home Office will know just how badly another party has to be behaving for them to look like the more humanitarian and responsible option in comparison.

This is NZ goverment guidance for citizens in the UK, and it's actually quite amazingly entitled.

www.mfat.govt.nz/en/countries-and-regions/europe/united-kingdom/new-zealand-high-commission/living-in-the-uk/covid-19-new-zealanders-in-the-uk-frequently-asked-questions/

Options are limited, you should take steps to stay safe where you are, we aren't going to give you any money to pay for the consequences of our policy, if you can't afford to safely shelter see what your family and friends can do, get in touch with the UK Home Office who have accepted temporary responsibility for keeping you while we refuse. It's all basically saying you aren't our problem, someone else deal with you.

Now I'm actually glad New Zealanders stranded in the UK can at least maintain legal residence. It's a good thing. In a pandemic, I wouldn't have wanted the UK government or really any other to waste time and resources trying to force NZ into accepting their own citizens. But equally, NZ are lucky that other countries have been willing to do this, to keep or take in the citizens they refuse to have back or at least not to actively try and remove them. Had the rest of the world declined to cooperate, the charade of the past couple of years couldn't have happened.

There was one on this thread I think planning to go to U.K. on a tourist visa as U.K. will let her in when her own country NZ won’t. That is bonkers!

That's me and yes we are now in the UK because my work and residency visa had expired. I applied for 3 exemptions to enter NZ but was denied. My dog is already in NZ ( no MiQ for pets) and my freight is as well. We can only enter from March 17th and will need to home isolate.
I will miss the start of my new job and my children should have been in school already.
Part of me doesn't even want to go.

Well you are welcome here in the U.K. Taxi Hope you enjoy your stay
It is crazy that you are not allowed to go home.

Thank you.
It is really shocking that we are still locked out but hopefully the end is in sight.
I think the borders closure to citizens is totally inhumane. My story is only the tip of the iceberg, we've had challenges but nothing compared to some . At least we have been together throughout as a family.

Well except that the Bellis case is not as simple as all of you are making out. Because apparently NZ ALSO needed to take her partner or she would have stayed in Afghanistan. Otherwise she could have gone to Australia. So no, it's not JUST about the border closures.

The Bellis case is just the most eye catching because she's a journo and the Taliban angle is shocking.

The fact is that NZ denied entry to many of its actual citizens, leaving them at the mercy of whoever would house them, because the MIQ is not fit for purpose.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@Sundayvibes the "only 17,500 died "of" covid " myth was debunked weeks ago. Yes lots of people who died of COVID had underlying conditions. Lots of people do have underlying conditions. But many were basically doing perfectly well and expected to live many more years before they caught COVID which killed them.[/quote]
That might be the case but it's not 180k or anywhere near either is it ?

It’s available for everyone to view on the ONS website.

Life expectancy in the uk 81.20
Average age of covid ‘ related ‘ death in uk 82.60.
2% of deaths in people were under the age of 44.
Hopefully one day a full enquiry will take place into this virus and how how populations were scare mongered by media and governments

@Sundayvibes people under 50 usually take a longer to die of COVID than 28 days. You need to search the figures of people who died be 4 and 12 weeks to find them.