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Covid

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Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

791 replies

idontknow54789 · 27/01/2022 20:45

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

OP posts:
shewillhaveherway · 29/01/2022 05:20

Except @Bifflepants the 1/3 of the country who live in Auckland and who were locked down for months and months and months.

camperqueen54 · 29/01/2022 06:38

When I went to New Zealand in the 90s I thought it was like Britain would have been in the 50s. When it ever opens up again it's going to be like Britain in the 1900s!

Talk about isolationism!

TheKeatingFive · 29/01/2022 06:53

Incidentally, my friend in the UK didn't get to see her mother (also in the UK) for two years, and then her mother died. A combination of lockdowns and other circumstances caused this.

Well those are some significant 'other circumstances' as there was ample time in those two years when she would have been able to see her.

Being legally prevented from seeing your family is the issue here.

VikingOnTheFridge · 29/01/2022 07:39

Milkyaqua, of the four links you've posted there, one isn't UK specific, one doesn't have any figures and two cite estimates of 60,000 people in the UK with it, ie about 6% of the 1 million plus figure that tealight used.

The existence of Long Covid itself isn't what's in discussion here, it's the numbers. Over a million disabled with long covid is so completely out of range with all the stats we have that it's the sort of claim requiring evidence. Even the ONS figures that state nearly 1.5 million reporting long covid make very clear that they're including people whose cough hasn't quite lifted after 4 weeks: they make no claim of disability for that number.

MarshaBradyo · 29/01/2022 07:41

Simply pointed out a fact - that it won't be as easy as with some countries, to pressure them to let it rip.

You’re missing the reality of the situation. NZ is letting it pass through population now.

I’m glad the out of date thinking will be over now the number of countries to list as suppressing omicron is nearly zero.

Time to accept ideas around section of the world without Covid isn’t possible. Although I’m not sure that will sink in as it’s been obvious for a while.

zafferana · 29/01/2022 08:03

Death is not the only issue. Although actually omicron is not mild, and being highly transmissible, it kills as many as 300-400 a day in the UK.

This is a misunderstanding of how Covid deaths are counted in the UK. Here, people who die within 28 days of a positive Covid test, are counted in the Covid death numbers.

There is a big difference though between people who die OF Covid and those who die WITH Covid. As I understand it, the vast majority of these deaths are cause by other things - cancer, heart disease, lung disease, dementia. The difference is that they may also have caught Covid in their final 28 days of life - an unfortunate, but pretty common occurrence for anyone who has ended up in hospital in the UK over the past couple of years.

It's much better to look at 'excess death' figures to understand how many people are dying/have died of Covid in the UK since the start of the pandemic. As I understand it, this winter deaths have been lower than the average as a result of sick/elderly people being cautious about socialising and therefore being less likely to catch seasonal illnesses.

taxidermissy · 29/01/2022 09:43

A pregnant NZ journalist in Kabul has been denied an emergency MIQ spot.

Gennz18 · 29/01/2022 09:47

@Bifflepants “as we have been living with very few restrictions for most of the pandemic”

Eh? I was locked in my house for the second half of last year, police borders around my city, kids out of school and crèche from August 17. Very few restrictions?!

Omni cases are mounting up and our borders will be forced open any day now - by end of February I’m picking. MIQ will not survive a legal challenge.

taxidermissy · 29/01/2022 09:51

I have absolutely no hope.

Jewel1968 · 29/01/2022 10:12

Have not read the whole thread but I imagine we will judge how different countries handled COVID quite far in the future. We will look back and measure success or otherwise by:

  • numbers dead
  • numbers with long COVID
  • impact on economy
  • numbers if businesses that failed
  • impact on mental health
  • impact on society
Not sure what success will be considered to be and different countries will have different views. NZ eventually might be deemed a success but then again maybe not.
Cousinit · 29/01/2022 10:14

There seems to be a lot of bullshit being spread in the UK media about NZ right now. Firstly we are not in lockdown. I am in Auckland right now, it's a holiday weekend, and the city is buzzing. We have been out for dinner and drinks, people are out a about as usual albeit in masks. Somebody sent me a ridiculous clip of Philip Schofield asking how kiwis are coping and the streets are empty. We are fine. The streets are not empty. Secondly we are not pursuing a zero covid strategy. We are allowing omicron to spread but hopefully we will be flattening the curve enough to ease any pressures on the health service. I am hopeful the silver lining to us allowing covid to spread will be the opening of our borders by the middle of the year. So the "hermit kingdom" whingers will then have to think of a new insult for us Smile

FreakinFrankNFurter · 29/01/2022 10:21

It makes me laugh when anyone criticises NZ's recent approach, people turn round and say well the UK has been worse.

Yes, the UK gov has handled a lot of covid badly. NZ appears to be handling things badly recently - not letting its own citizens into the country and having no route out of the current situation with closed borders.

The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Jewel1968 · 29/01/2022 10:24

@cousinit sounds a reasonable approach to me but then I have always suspected NZ had the right approach. Time will tell I guess. The impact on mental health in the UK will be huge

Porcupineintherough · 29/01/2022 10:25

@zafferana excess mortality has been greatly increased in the uk in both 2020 and 2021. If the excess isnt caused by COVID what do you think has caused it?

As an aside "with covid" doesnt mean that COVID is incidental. For instance covid causes things like heart attacks and strokes and also makes you surviving from them much less likely. It worsens outcomes across the board.

Delatron · 29/01/2022 10:27

Hopefully the current measures you have are enough to flatten the curve. As we saw in various European countries even lockdown was ineffective against Omicron though. If bars and restaurants are buzzing then that spread will happen quickly. In a population with zero natural immunity.

I find it interesting to hear the reports from NZ on here. Rather than the U.K. media. It appears a different situation for everyone.

The quarantine issue will be tricky once Omicron gets hold. You may have lots of people isolating for 3 weeks just being a contact. Then they may go on to get it and isolate again?

zafferana · 29/01/2022 10:30

[quote Porcupineintherough]@zafferana excess mortality has been greatly increased in the uk in both 2020 and 2021. If the excess isnt caused by COVID what do you think has caused it?

As an aside "with covid" doesnt mean that COVID is incidental. For instance covid causes things like heart attacks and strokes and also makes you surviving from them much less likely. It worsens outcomes across the board.[/quote]
Not all those excess deaths are attributable to infection with Covid though. Some people have simply not been able or willing to access healthcare or see a doctor when they needed to and so have died. Ergo, nothing to do with catching Covid, everything to do with the impact that Covid has had on the wider healthcare network.

And yes, Covid can accelerate death in an already sick individual or cause death, but the way we count Covid deaths in this country has made our Covid death figures much higher than other countries who don't count every single death within 28 days of a positive Covid test as a Covid death.

milkyaqua · 29/01/2022 10:31

@VikingOnTheFridge

Milkyaqua, of the four links you've posted there, one isn't UK specific, one doesn't have any figures and two cite estimates of 60,000 people in the UK with it, ie about 6% of the 1 million plus figure that tealight used.

The existence of Long Covid itself isn't what's in discussion here, it's the numbers. Over a million disabled with long covid is so completely out of range with all the stats we have that it's the sort of claim requiring evidence. Even the ONS figures that state nearly 1.5 million reporting long covid make very clear that they're including people whose cough hasn't quite lifted after 4 weeks: they make no claim of disability for that number.

You said: "As if someone still having a cough 29 days after a positive test amounts to disability."

I gave some links at hand which disputed your version of what Long Covid entailed. That is all.

Cousinit · 29/01/2022 10:40

@Delatron

Hopefully the current measures you have are enough to flatten the curve. As we saw in various European countries even lockdown was ineffective against Omicron though. If bars and restaurants are buzzing then that spread will happen quickly. In a population with zero natural immunity.

I find it interesting to hear the reports from NZ on here. Rather than the U.K. media. It appears a different situation for everyone.

The quarantine issue will be tricky once Omicron gets hold. You may have lots of people isolating for 3 weeks just being a contact. Then they may go on to get it and isolate again?

Yes, it will spread pretty quickly, we have been told this will be the case. It's certainly a big psychological adjustment for many people (myself included) but there's also a sense of if not now, when? The self isolation rules are definitely going to create disruption in the short term but I believe they are to help slow the initial spread and will be relaxed further on in the outbreak.
Quartz2208 · 29/01/2022 10:44

Then the real question is can be controlled particularly the BA.2 variant so far not by much particularly if the borders are shut

The UK maybe an outlier in removing masks and vaccine pass restrictions but most are having to come to terms with removing most others

TheKeatingFive · 29/01/2022 10:58

I gave some links at hand which disputed your version of what Long Covid entailed. That is all.

The problem is that the definition of long covid is so broad, encompassing everything from the most minor of symptoms to more serious ones, as to be totally unhelpful for discussion.

Also any long covid study I've seen has been based on self reported data. Again, not reliable or helpful in terms of understanding the real threat.

So while no one is denying long covid can have serious implications, the data we have doesn't help us understand how widespread that is at all.

Scianel · 29/01/2022 11:00

China to abandon common sense

What China is doing is not common sense, it's absolutely brutal and unsustainable and what their end goal is god only knows. Keep their borders closed indefinitely a la North Korea?

VikingOnTheFridge · 29/01/2022 11:09

You said: "As if someone still having a cough 29 days after a positive test amounts to disability."

I gave some links at hand which disputed your version of what Long Covid entailed. That is all.

You have misunderstood.

I don't think defining long covid in the way some, for example the ONS do, is sensible. The ONS btw have been attributing anyone still reporting quite minor symptoms such as a cough after 28 days as having long covid.

The poster I responded to claimed that over 1 million people in the UK are disabled by long covid. I find this inherently implausible because it's completely out of whack with everything that's been reported so far. Which includes the two of your links that were relevant. Usually when people make a 1 million plus long covid claim it's because they've heard about the ONS figure and not checked what it actually means. It's telling that tealight hasn't posted any evidence to defend it.

This misunderstanding is quite interesting to me because it goes to show how varied the usage of the term 'long covid' is. Hence people get confused.

Pluvia · 29/01/2022 11:10

*Not all those excess deaths are attributable to infection with Covid though. Some people have simply not been able or willing to access healthcare or see a doctor when they needed to and so have died. Ergo, nothing to do with catching Covid, everything to do with the impact that Covid has had on the wider healthcare network.

And yes, Covid can accelerate death in an already sick individual or cause death, but the way we count Covid deaths in this country has made our Covid death figures much higher than other countries who don't count every single death within 28 days of a positive Covid test as a Covid death.*

Yes to all this. I helped a friend nurse her elderly mother at home until she died at this time last year. The mother had decided that rather than go into hospital for treatment and an operation she would prefer to die at home. She was in her 80s but clear-headed about it, didn't want to risk her last days being spent on an under-staffed ward, neglected and unfed with her family banned from seeing her. She had a good death, in her own bed, with her cat beside her and her daughter holding her hand. One of her oldest friends had died in hospital with family watching on an iPad and it had horrified everyone who was aware of it, many of them elderly. I wonder how many of them refused treatment as a result of the fear of dying alone in an understaffed hospital?

We had a neighbour in his 50s who was terminally ill with lung cancer and expected to live less than a month when he caught Covid and died and was registered as a Covid death.

Every country seems to count Covid deaths slightly differently. We record as Covid deaths people who have died within 28 days of having tested positive for Covid. You could have asymptomatic Covid, come out of quarantine, fall off a ladder and break your neck and still be counted in the Covid figures. Other countries do it differently. It will take years for the numbers to be properly compared.

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