Do you think schools will return as normal in January?

[LucozadeGirl]

Just that really.

Kids who aren’t fed - school problem rather than social services?
Kids in violent home - school issue rather than social services?
Kids homeless - oh yes - school issue

Sorry my question is: why does this mean that schools should NOT reopen?

I thought we are discussing whether schools should reopen in January?

As a secondary teacher, I'm going to go against the grain and say actually a couple of weeks of planned online learning to put real mitigations in school would be the best thing for their education (older ones, whose parents can go to work so no childcare repercussions).
If being in the classroom with their actual teacher and most of the class being there is 100%.
Then being at home all online with planned live online lessons from their actual teacher is 80%.
Being in school with half the class out, some online some in person, teacher either there or online doing hybrid learning is 60%.
Being in school with some cover work and an adult body in the room (one of these retired teachers who is apparently going to step up) which may or may not be marked due to teacher shortage - 40%.
Being in school with a couple of other kids and a random adult body in the room, but no cover work because the whole department is too sick to set it (this happened in my school the last week of term) - 10%.
I doubt that the government have any intention of putting real mitigations like air purifiers in though, so it's a moot point as at some point we will end up working our way through all the above scenarios without any mitigations.

We might not be able to completely stop the spread but we can slow it and ease pressure on hospitals (they're setting up in car parks now fgs) and give more time for people to get vaccinated/boostered.

Something will have to be done about schools. Cases in my area are 1367 per 100,000 and still rising. Of course that proportion is more heavily weighted in the younger age groups too.

I know a lot of people with covid at the moment and some are really feeling quite poorly. Some lateral flow tests haven't picked up, too. This is not a benign illness that it's fine to let people catch. Give it a couple of weeks and the pressures on hospitals will really ramp up.

Yet as things stand I am supposed to send DS into covid stew at school next week. I don't give it long until he catches it and is off sick anyway if they leave things as they are.

If they don't close the schools, they need masks in secondary school classrooms at the very least. They could supply a HEPA filter to every classroom for half the cost of what we are spending on the royal yacht. They also need to isolate household contacts given how virulent omicron is - and start actually telling parents about cases again. I haven't been informed of any by school since July - and I know there have been cases because DS has told me.

The plan of getting retired teachers back in as cannon fodder to replace those that go off sick with covid is absolutely nuts - children need consistency, older teachers are even more at risk than the general population, they just need to protect the teachers we have much better! I feel really sorry for the teachers - other professions have better mitigations than them, they're working in cramped classes with largely or entirely unvaccinated children with no PPE apart from a bit of hand sanitizer and an open window if it's not too cold. Our kids and the people we trust to look after and teach them deserve so much better.

Yes, I hope so. I think staff absences might be a challenge though, so expect some disruption.

@swallowedAfly

Does anyone care about vulnerable kids outside the hours of 8.30am and 3.30pm? I see they're being bandied about as a useful argument by some again.

Child is in an abusive or otherwise dangerous home - Us4Them reaction - all fine so long as school is open as normal No one going to campaign for sorting out social services, children's services, foster places etc? Nah, course not. They're just useful for dressing up your argument with a bit of faux virtue.

Well said.

Vulnerable children often don't turn up at school either. It requires some degree of organisation to get to school on time etc.

Those using vulnerable children don't give a shit about this either, clearly, because they're not arguing for more resources for school, CAMHS, social services to help these kids.

[quote ChloeDecker]@TerfetyTERF
Why do teachers feel they are more at risk than the rest of us?

It’s most likely due to the fact that ONS statistics continually state that education staff are more likely to test positive than any other working adult (ONS’s words not mine) and school-aged children and adults aged around 40 to 50 years continued to be more likely to test positive than other ages. Of course, with people not currently able to get PCR tests, who knows how next week will pan out.

So if we want school children to continue receiving good quality face to face education, we need to stop putting fingers in ears and do more to enable fewer pupils and education staff testing positive or isolating, by putting in measures we now know work for an airborne virus. I’m doing my bit because I have just bought my own HEPA filter machine for my classroom (which last term, would daily reach 2000ppm on a CO2 monitor that the DforE didn’t provide otherwise I would still be waiting) even with windows open because 34 computers and 35 people in the room is obviously not a good combination for good air quality). This is because I am desperate to do what I can to still teach face to face but unless the DforE pull their finger out and families are able to physically get teats in the first place, I am on a hiding to nothing on my own.
So a polite request to certain posters or name changers to be more mindful of what they post. We all want young people to be educated and feel safe.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveycharacteristicsofpeopletestingpositiveforcovid19uk/16december2021[/quote]
@ChloeDecker - any advice on how to get our secondary school to accept us buying a HEPA filter machine / co2 monitor for them? Have offered several times and the silence is resounding. I don't want to just buy one just in case they need to meet a certain specification. What has your school said about you buying one?

I know other parents would chip in too. Whilst we shouldn't have to, I think the school could be significantly safer if parents were just allowed to contribute, and it would help my income quite a lot if my kids were off sick less often, so it's win win. (the evidence shows they help with all respiratory viruses not just covid).

Totally agree with @swallowedAfly these kids need home help school isn’t saving them. Also I should Imagine there is a similar amount of children that get trauma from being at school too (bullied/wrong environment/needs not being met etc).
It’s very frustrating for me, the government have allowed the numbers to get out of hand, now my children, won’t get speech therapy, ot therapy and I have no idea whether the Ed psych will be in school in Jan to assess my child (ehcp assessment), no one seems to care that these things have stopped for children with special needs because all that seem to matter is all the non disabled/healthy people. Who don’t want to give up a thing for cev/disabled people. Sorry but children who are in Sen schools that have a high staff ratio won’t have that due to covid numbers being so high and children with 1-1 won’t have that due to staffing in mainstreams.
Shortening isolation time having no pcr and lft really not helpful. Teachers also have their own lives and families etc.
Schools need to be open but the government needed to try and get some control before they go back. We need to work together, I have managed to test 3 kids with asd/learning difficulties (severe to moderate) and adhd kids twice a week and get them to wear masks when out. It was easy they
Are still young, but they have got use to it. To protect others.
I sometimes feel people who are not worried at all l who don’t to lft who want life as normal are actually just as anxious as the people who want to stay at home safe in their bubble, the difference is they are scared of change and not the virus.
I have said this before, I honestly think we need to adapt to this, we can neither hide away nor pretend it’s not there. It’s about the vulnerable feeling safer and some people changing a few things in their lives.

We can raise alarm bells about a child being in danger - if there's no one bothering to do anything about that alarm bell it's a box ticked but does nothing to help that child at risk. Yes we can give them a hot chocolate, we can ensure they're safe whilst they're with us when they manage to make it to school, we can ensure they're fed that day but that is not safeguarding and not good enough.

To then suggest that it is the sole job of schools to keep children safe and that keeping schools open equals caring for children at risk is despicable.

SW worked from home during lockdown but I don't recall a single thread on here with people worrying about what that meant for children known to be at risk. They only get a look in when someone wants to add weight to their demand for schools to be normal. They're generally not even willing to have their child wear a mask to protect CV children and their families and don't even want to keep their children home when the rest of the family is covid positive but we're supposed to believe they suddenly care about vulnerable children? Meh.

@ChloeDecker

I’m not sure calling people deluded ever had any merit in a debate @treeflowercat but seeing as Boris clearly agrees with you, what do you think should be put in place whilst the virus rips through everyone: for the inevitable staff absence, pupils at home missing school who catch it and the long term issues of mental health or complications from the virus?

Omicron will transmit through schools, period. The choice isn't whether it does, but the rate at which we allow it to do so. You are still approaching this with the "zero-Covid" mindset that if only we did x,y,z then we could control this thing and stop people getting it... That is deluded I'm afraid. 75% of 5-14s have already been infected based on latest estimates so it's hardly a novelty!

The choice is whether we put all sorts of mitigations in place so that we spread it over a long period... with at least as much disruption happening but over a far more protracted period, or whether we let things take their natural course (I've no objections to air filters etc to reduce viral load).... The latter would be far less disruptive in my view for schools (though I accept it may have unacceptable consequences for the rest of society) than fighting an ongoing attritional battle that realistically can't be won, and end up in the same place come the summer.

It would be easier for CEV to manage too... managing an identical risk over a short period is easier than doing so over an extended one. Unless you do the impossible and eliminate Covid, Squashing the infection curve doesn't reduce the area under that curve (ie infections).

@swallowedAfly 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Also schools were told to keep children in need/vulnerable children Named by social services still in school!! So a lot of them
Kids should of still had the opportunity to be at school during lockdowns.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

I think that is a wonderful thought and hope my school community feel the same.

As schools have such rigid risk assessments, I would contact the Head and just state that’s what you would like to do. Maybe it could be a fundraiser?

No, it isn't a zero covid mindset to want some mitigations in schools.

The more cases we have all at once, the more disrupted learning will be, and the more likely it is that a particular school will end up closing, either the whole school or part of it, to in person teaching.

High cases numbers in school are also likely to make it more difficult to reach out to vulnerable children.

Omicron will transmit through schools, period.
I agree
The choice isn't whether it does, but the rate at which we allow it to do so.
I agree
You are still approaching this with the "zero-Covid" mindset

No I am not.

that if only we did x,y,z then we could control this thing and stop people getting it...
It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. I find it strange that a minority of people still think it has to be. There is a middle ground.

That is deluded I'm afraid.
How rude. There is no delusion my end I can assure you. I’ve been facing this right from day one-in the thick of it. Laughable to think any education staff are ‘deluded’. Realistic maybe.

Oh Chloe but they get such a better view from their armchair!

@herecomesthsun

No, it isn't a zero covid mindset to want some mitigations in schools.

The more cases we have all at once, the more disrupted learning will be, and the more likely it is that a particular school will end up closing, either the whole school or part of it, to in person teaching.

High cases numbers in school are also likely to make it more difficult to reach out to vulnerable children.

The higher the numbers with covid all at once the larger amount of virus in enclosed spaces.

This means it's more likely kids and teachers will get seriously ill or die.

Higher viral load = more severe disease. This has been proved several times.

"Over 2,000 6-17 year olds have been admitted to hospital with covid-19 since 1 September and 10 5-14 year olds have died with covid as contributing cause, compared to 720 and two respectively over the same period in 2020
"
www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n3149

That's the difference mitigations make. Far more mitigations in schools in 2020 than 2021.

Ninja11
I won't be sending mine back. Primary schools have no measures and it's completely mad that we aren't trying to prevent this from infecting the kids at all or mutating further. I would feel much safer if schools had more protection and safety measures but that seems unlikely.
Why do you keep name changing to post the same thing under different names?

⬆️⬆️⬆️ hilarious! 🤣

Another waste of our kids education time, why are we testing healthy kids? I agree with this. I also think that unless people have symptoms they shouldn't have to isolate any longer. For everyone I know Omicron has been amid illness if they even had symptoms. I empatise with teachers, it's chaotic, which must be stressful. It's like that for many of us in no teaching professions. Going ahead with a large teaching conference seems very short sighted.

Omicron has been a mild illness

swallowedAfly

Well said. Totally agree.

"SW worked from home during lockdown."

My child's SW was still doing visits but seeing children outside unless there was good reason to go in the house. The problem was parents refusing visits when visits were needed.

STDs can cause mild illness, often showing no symptoms at all. Should we encourage people to stop taking precautions against catching/spreading them? And certainly don't test for them!

@ReinReinRein

Are you against all health screening? Or just for those which have no or limited apparent symptoms - HIV, routine mammogram, prostrate screening, bowel screening, antenatal scanning, post-birth testing, smear tests...

@herecomesthsun

No, it isn't a zero covid mindset to want some mitigations in schools.

The more cases we have all at once, the more disrupted learning will be, and the more likely it is that a particular school will end up closing, either the whole school or part of it, to in person teaching.

High cases numbers in school are also likely to make it more difficult to reach out to vulnerable children.

I fundamentally disagree...

Scenario 1: School accepts reality of Omicron and continues largely as normal. Most of class get infected in early January. Class is sent home and online learning occurs for 2-3 weeks. Most of the class are well enough to engage after a couple of days (if that!) and teaching is far easier than having to juggle a mixture of in school and isolating 'on-line' kids. By the end of January the class can resume without the fear of Covid overhanging them. (Yes, they won't remain immune forever but they'll very likely be fine until at least the start of the next school year!). They can then engage fully in normal school activities too, without all manner of restrictions hindering the learning experience.

Scenario 2: School puts in lots of measures to keep things "safe". Masks in class, bubbles, quarantining books, curtailing "risky" activities such as singing, stopping assemblies etc. Class gets infected in 3s and 4s over the entire spring term. Lots of isolation, compounded by isolating when siblings have been infected, and those off waiting for PCR results confirming they have a common cold.....and a class short on number for the whole term, with teachers struggling to engage with the 6-8 or so isolating at home at any one time whilst the doing a day's teaching in school. And by Easter, the same number end up having had Covid.

How anyone could think the "Covid-safe" scenario 2 is less disruptive and ultimately less damaging is beyond me. It make absolutely no sense....

Scenario 1: teacher also gets Covid and no online teaching is done for obvious reasons. Teacher isn't seriously ill but does seem to have continuing debilitating symptoms that involve an extended time off work and eventually a request to work part time.
^ hypothetical, but equally possible.

Scenario 2 is absolutely what I think will happen. It will be awful for everyone.

@ChloeDecker

To quote from your earlier post...

* "whilst the virus rips through everyone: for the inevitable staff absence, pupils at home missing school who catch it and the long term issues of mental health or complications from the virus?*"

You're clearly arguing here for measures to stop Covid infection in schools and prevent pupils and teachers from catching it, not to slow Covid infection. That's why I said you appear to have a "zero-Covid" mindset, even if you don't admit it or realise you do.