Page 9 | Work sending messages pleading for help

whenwillthemadnessend · 2021-12-27T09:41:03+00:00

My work has sent out an email this morning pleading for help today. I expect it will be Like this for a few weeks now. It's not an essential service likely but if my Work is doing it how are the essential services going to cope This is why I think we will End up with some restrictions soon.

SheikhMaraca · 27/12/2021 16:46

you may not have noticed but the government have used the principle of parliamentary sovereignty to ignore jurisprudence whenever it suits them

Can you expand on this? I afraid I have no idea what you mean.

How does relate to the idea that making policy based on edge cases is generally speaking a bad idea? (The point under discussion)

walksen · 27/12/2021 16:53

"How does relate to the idea that making policy based on edge cases is generally speaking a bad idea"

Mitigations in school does not solely benefit people who are cev. It would reduce infections, absences, improve educational attainment for all. Perhaps you could expand how this violates principle of jurisprudence in these countries when it does not in most of Europe who have legal systems centuries old

QueenoftheNimbleFlyingCat · 27/12/2021 17:13

Constant restrictions just aren't feasible I don't think. People can't afford to keep isolating for what is essentially a very mild illness for most and businesses certainly can't cope with limited staff being off. I don't think it shows a lack of care for those that are CEV, I have a lot of sympathy but colds/flu have always had the possibility of killing those people. We really need to think of the wider social implications of further restrictions and not just knee jerk into lockdowns etc.

I think the government have had nearly 2 years to invest in healthcare, improve ventilation, increase sick/isolation pay and they have done none of it.

SheikhMaraca · 27/12/2021 17:13

Ok, so let’s say we fit air filtration systems in all classrooms.

There are 0 clinically extremely vulnerable DC in the UK, so there is no benefit whatsoever to health outcomes for any DC whatsoever.

Let’s now look at the costs of this policy.

The actual cost of this work would almost certainly be rolled into the already £500bn debt incurred through the funding of ‘measures’ all of which will be paid by the DC in question in the form of effectively stealing their old age pensions.

Let’s also look at the environmental costs of running these units? I’m no expert here, but this is going to have a huge impact on our chances of achieving net zero anytime soon. Every child, current and future will feel the pain of this.

So on the benefit side of the scale, there’s nothing, literally nothing. On the cost side however, are huge, life ruining costs that will impact all people, right across the planet for centuries to come.

Do you really think this is a good idea?

Even if you take into consideration the 600,000 or so people* who are CEV and live with children, it represents such a tiny proportion of the uk population that is just cannot be justified to undertake such a drastic policy when the cost/benefit analysis looks like this.

*data from ONS

Curiousmouse · 27/12/2021 17:31

Oh dear. Government testing a possible new batty policy.

walksen · 27/12/2021 17:38

Ironic how you said let's look at the cost, then neglected it completely.

We could simply cancel Boris vanity project, according to the lib Dems.

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/dec/27/covid-air-filters-for-all-classrooms-in-england-would-cost-half-of-royal-yacht.

Ironic how childre s future are being jeopardised by missing schools not having regular teachers, lack of social interaction but spend a few hundred million out of £500 billion will cripple the country for forevermore. Germany and New York city think it's worth it. More evidence of British exceptionalism.

Even the gbd signatories said we should at least try to shield the vulnerable. Not worth it in your book though?

Centuries of jurisprudence indeed.

BoredZelda · 27/12/2021 17:48

There are 0 clinically extremely vulnerable DC in the UK, so there is no benefit whatsoever to health outcomes for any DC whatsoever.

Perhaps I’ve missed something in this discussIon but this is untrue.

SheikhMaraca · 27/12/2021 17:55

@BoredZelda

There are 0 clinically extremely vulnerable DC in the UK, so there is no benefit whatsoever to health outcomes for any DC whatsoever.

Perhaps I’ve missed something in this discussIon but this is untrue.

Yes, you’ve missed this update from RCPCH

Blubells · 27/12/2021 17:58

Ironic how childre s future are being jeopardised by missing schools not having regular teachers, lack of social interaction but spend a few hundred million out of £500 billion will cripple the country for forevermore. Germany and New York city think it's worth it.

Germans pay higher taxes and social security contributions, so the Government has more money to spend.

We don't know yet whether these investments are worth it - they may not be.

SheikhMaraca · 27/12/2021 17:59

@walksen

Ironic how you said let's look at the cost, then neglected it completely.

We could simply cancel Boris vanity project, according to the lib Dems.

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/dec/27/covid-air-filters-for-all-classrooms-in-england-would-cost-half-of-royal-yacht.

Ironic how childre s future are being jeopardised by missing schools not having regular teachers, lack of social interaction but spend a few hundred million out of £500 billion will cripple the country for forevermore. Germany and New York city think it's worth it. More evidence of British exceptionalism.

Even the gbd signatories said we should at least try to shield the vulnerable. Not worth it in your book though?

Centuries of jurisprudence indeed.

There are no health threats to DC from the virus, this has been quite clearly established. Therefore there’s no need to fit air filtration units.

SheikhMaraca · 27/12/2021 18:00

…and jurisprudence does not mean what you think it means.

walksen · 27/12/2021 18:05

"quite clearly established.". Says you

Meanwhile in the UK, some kids have died from covid so I find it hard to agree there are no health benefits. There is also avoiding long term effects, harms from infecting and losing family members etc.

walksen · 27/12/2021 18:06

and jurisprudence does not mean what you think it means.

Not sure it means what you say it does either!

SheikhMaraca · 27/12/2021 18:14

@walksen

"quite clearly established.". Says you

Meanwhile in the UK, some kids have died from covid so I find it hard to agree there are no health benefits. There is also avoiding long term effects, harms from infecting and losing family members etc.

Between march 2020 and Feb 2021 there were 25 deaths in under 18s, with approx half of those in DC without complex, underlying disabilities (being tube fed etc). Source

That leaves 12 deaths, which of course is a tragedy for the families of those DC, but nowhere near justification for fitting air filtration units to all classrooms in all schools.

Surely you can see this?

walksen · 27/12/2021 18:20

"no health threats to DC"

"That leaves 12 deaths"

Surely you see these statements are contradictorary?

You must also be aware you are ignoring wider benefits to pupils that I have already pointed out. As I stated much earlier in the thread the government could conduct a full cost benefit analysis but have chosen not to.

Thepineapplemystery · 27/12/2021 18:28

@Blubells

Maybe the 7 day isolation rule should be scrapped for those who feel well enough to work?

I don't actually know anyone who has felt well enough to work. The 'best' I've known of (friends, family and patients) is a bad cold, bone weary, achy and exhausted. The type of bad cold you can't work with, not a mild snivelling cold.

SantaClawsServiette · 27/12/2021 18:46

The isolation rules are becoming increasingly unsustainable. IN my area the health authority has just realized that it can't keep running tests at the level they had been telling people was required, they had to stop cancer tests, STIs, completely crazy. So now they are telling people to stay home and isolate for 10 days if they have cold symptoms. DO not come in for a test.

Except no one can afford to be off for 10 days with every cold nor can their workplaces function. So they are either ignoring it, or going in for a test to see if they are clear to go back to work.

BoredZelda · 27/12/2021 18:55

Yes, you’ve missed this update from RCPCH

Which says CEV categorisation has been removed for children in England and Wales. It has been retained in Scotland. So there are not “0 CEV children in the U.K.” as you stated.

peridito · 27/12/2021 18:55

It seems to have become a habit to to equate omricon with a cold . In my mind the differences are that colds have been with us for decades and a lot is known about the virus that causes them and how it behaves .
We have also ,over the years learned how to live with flu and how to adapt vaccines for it .

The current virus is new ,it's short and long term effects on people are
unpredictable.And it mutates as it spreads .

WonderfulYou · 27/12/2021 19:17

**

Please, remind yourself of what the CFR is before posting?

Read the data of the number of cases and predicted number of cases and then you’ll realise how awful it is that you think we should have a 50%+ CFR before we take preventative measures.

Maybe banging your head on the desk is damaging brain cells.

DopesickSis · 27/12/2021 19:20

@peridito

It seems to have become a habit to to equate omricon with a cold . In my mind the differences are that colds have been with us for decades and a lot is known about the virus that causes them and how it behaves . We have also ,over the years learned how to live with flu and how to adapt vaccines for it .

The current virus is new ,it's short and long term effects on people are
unpredictable.And it mutates as it spreads .

Exactly.

The single worst fallacy of this whole pandemic has been the notion that this novel Coronavirus can be equates to 'a cold'.

It breeds a false as as if security and removes the unknown quantities. We are still learning about this virus. What we do know is that it's capable of impacting multiple organs and causing lasting damage, Long Covid is not the only long term health issue that Covid is leaving in its wake.

containsnuts · 27/12/2021 19:37

@Autumndays123

It always amazes me that posters call for lockdowns without any suggestion.to any form of exit plan. What do these people actually want to happen? How do we protect vulnerable people from covid forever? Genuinely please enlighten me because it's clear vaccinations don't stop the spread of covid entirely and neither does it protect people. So if we must save every life and protect every person from getting it until the end of time, how do you envision that?

The point of lockdown was never to prevent people getting covid but to stop everyone getting it at once. The exit allows the next phase of people to get infected when there is space to accommodate them in hospital.

flowerycurtain · 27/12/2021 19:45

Where in the world is common sense.

I'm on day 8 of isolation and I've been absolutely fine, just picked up on an LfD before seeing a vulnerable relative over Xmas. . I work either in an office by myself. There is no rhyme or reason why I shouldn't work. I have staff that work in huge sheds or open fields. Again, if they feel ok why shouldn't they work.

Nurse ion a cancer ward? Fair do's have it off. Back office physio who can delay patients and catch up on paperwork. Crack on.

We are losing the ability to think for ourselves and with nuance.

ddl1 · 27/12/2021 19:48

There are 0 clinically extremely vulnerable DC in the UK, so there is no benefit whatsoever to health outcomes for any DC whatsoever.

I would be most surprised if there are no CEV children in the UK! In fact, knowing that there are quite a few children receiving chemo for cancer, I think you must be wrong on this. Also, some children, who are not CEV, are living in households with others who are.

But in any case, it is not only CEV children who would benefit from better ventilation and filtration. All children would be likely to catch fewer illnesses (not just Covid) and spend less time off school, if ventilation and filtration were better. They won't die without it, but they would still benefit from it.

ddl1 · 27/12/2021 19:59

There are no health threats to DC from the virus, this has been quite clearly established. Therefore there’s no need to fit air filtration units.

Even if this were true (and it certainly isn't for secondary school pupils, who do sometimes get long Covid), it doesn't follow! Covid isn't the only health risk in the universe, and children would spend less time off school with illnesses of all sorts if there was better filtration. It might also mean fewer school closures if there's another major epidemic in the future.

Also there would be fewer teachers sick and off school.

Another solution might be to reduce class sizes significantly, so that there is less crowding. This would have other benefits as well. But it would likely be even more expensive than filtration units.