Would you comply.. Yes or no? Circuit breaker or whatever they'll decide to turn it into.

[MarmitesMyMate]

No explanation needed. Just a yes or no.

For me it's a hard NO.

No

@DolphinFC

It’s terrible and amazing how many people are happy to harm others directly or I directly even their families.

I will get hit for this on here but that further shows their ignorance and lack of scientific ethical and public health data understanding.

All so they can have a mince pie.

@RichTeaRichTea

I doubt all will be stopped and of course if you are a carer that was never stopped.

So you heart spring play in misplaced.

Every one form it hard so time for friends to do extra

But the risks here out wiegh what you say!

I’m not sure what you are saying there among the typos, but it is obvious that you are of the view that the benefits outweigh the risks - otherwise you wouldn’t say it! You may be right - I am not sure, I see the long term harms caused by covid itself and restrictions too in my work, and we are not working with certainties.

[quote Cascascascas]@DolphinFC

It’s terrible and amazing how many people are happy to harm others directly or I directly even their families.

I will get hit for this on here but that further shows their ignorance and lack of scientific ethical and public health data understanding.

All so they can have a mince pie.[/quote]
How am I harming anyone if everyone I know is triple vaccinated? . They aren’t at risk because vaccinated so why would I be putting any pressure on the nhs?. It’s the vaccinated that are putting pressure on the nhs. I’m not willing to follow the rules for those 6 million adults that can’t of won’t have a single jab . If yo you want to call me selfish I don’t care .

“ of course if you are a carer that was never stopped”

Do people really believe this is what happened in practice? That does explain why many are so dismissive of the harms of restrictions

As I have repeatedly said - we are in a situation of “pick your chaos”. None of the options are without harm. I don’t know what is the right course - my priority is making sure my children do not suffer, and picking up what pieces I can when the wave makes its way through to my workload.

Before Christmas, no. After Christmas, yes.

gettingolder

Some of the triple vaccinated will need hospital treatment. Do you want them - maybe you - to need an ICU bed when the hospitals and bursting and the ambul... actually forget it. Two years in and I'm stunned how little people have understood.

[quote Chessie678]@WhatHoJeeves
If you ask an epidemiologist how to reduce covid cases of course they will recommend lockdown. They don't have to and (in fairness) have not been asked to have regard to anything other than covid when making their recommendation. If you ask an economist, psychologist, nutritionist, addiction or obesity specialist, education specialist etc. you will probably get a different answer.

Epidemiologists could recommend putting everyone in separate socially distanced cages for a month as a valid solution to the problem of covid. It doesn't mean it would be a good thing to do.[/quote]
Yes, exactly. The problem is that expert evidence of what approach causes least suffering and where the balance should be, which is where we are now, is notably absent. But people don't realise that. There's just this idea that a 'the science' exists.

@gettingolderandgrumpy being triple vaccine does not make you risk free, it greatly reduces your risk but you can still get Covid and pass it on.

[quote Cascascascas]@DolphinFC

It’s terrible and amazing how many people are happy to harm others directly or I directly even their families.

I will get hit for this on here but that further shows their ignorance and lack of scientific ethical and public health data understanding.

All so they can have a mince pie.[/quote]
this is so fundamentally not understanding the situation, I despair.

one of my dds is 14, my neice is also 14.
Both have suffered really badly from mental health over the last 2 years. My neice is severely anorexic now.

Last Christmas was horrendous. This year we are planning to all get together as a family. We met once over the summer, it was so healing for us all to be together. For the teens to see each other in person. They all came away better from it.
That is why we want them all together at Christmas. For their mental health, because they need that healing time. It isn't for a bloody mince pie.

Your insistance on lockdown harms my dd and my neice directly. They will suffer badly from it.
Why is it so hard to see that we are in a catch 22? Lockdown to protect the CEV (and I think the actual number in danger is very small)
Or don't lockdown to protect kids like my dd and my niece (and I think those numbers are much much larger)

I don't blame either side for their view, but I do get frustrated when people refuse to acknowledge that there are 2 valid sides.

How am I harming anyone if everyone I know is triple vaccinated? . They aren’t at risk because vaccinated so why would I be putting any pressure on the nhs?. It’s the vaccinated that are putting pressure on the nhs. I’m not willing to follow the rules for those 6 million adults that can’t of won’t have a single jab . If yo you want to call me selfish I don’t care .

No-one is saying there is no risk to the triple vaccinated, simply that there is less risk. You may not care about causing risk to people who can't be vaccinated, but perhaps you might care if they end up taking all the hospital bed so your relatives and friends can't get treatment for other conditions urgently requiring hospital admissions.

Yes

@GoodPrincessWenceslas

How am I harming anyone if everyone I know is triple vaccinated? . They aren’t at risk because vaccinated so why would I be putting any pressure on the nhs?. It’s the vaccinated that are putting pressure on the nhs. I’m not willing to follow the rules for those 6 million adults that can’t of won’t have a single jab . If yo you want to call me selfish I don’t care .

No-one is saying there is no risk to the triple vaccinated, simply that there is less risk. You may not care about causing risk to people who can't be vaccinated, but perhaps you might care if they end up taking all the hospital bed so your relatives and friends can't get treatment for other conditions urgently requiring hospital admissions.

Of course but that still doesn’t justify a lockdown. I decide what to do to keep ‘safe’ . Like I say I’ve done everything I can do and more but no way will I be willing to not see family and friends for any so called lockdown in the off chance they may need to get into hospital. The government have had all year to prepare for the winter , lockdown does more harm than good it isn’t my responsibility.

Yes. I am currently having chemotherapy and it could easily kill me to catch covid just now.

https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1471485797530583046?s=21

Yes.
Chris Whitty explains why lockdowns have been needed.

[quote Benjispruce5]@gettingolderandgrumpy being triple vaccine does not make you risk free, it greatly reduces your risk but you can still get Covid and pass it on.[/quote]
I’m aware of that but I’m unlikely to get seriously ill and go into hospital. So I’ll take that risk most people myself included it’s barely a cold now your vaccinated.
Those calling those against lockdown selfish , how about those calling for lockdown selfish . Your can’t see the huge financial and mental impact in your cosy wfh life not bothered about seeing anyone . You forget that these hospitality business’: that pay huge amount of tax/ vat on alcohol pays for this country to keep going . Do you actually believe that shutting down industry’s is a good thing to protect the nhs even though majority vaccinated?.

@Cascascascas
I gave birth right at the start of the first lockdown, life with a toddler and a newborn whilst DH was keyworking was hard, it wasn't something I ever thought I'd have to face whilst I was pregnant.

In the first lockdown, unless you had covid, the NHS didn't show up for you. I had no midwife appointments, no healthcare visits. I suffered with post partum infections and a baby falling through centiles - I feel a genuine bitterness towards the government when I think what they put us through.

I have dutifully got all of the vaccinations they told us we would need to get us through this pandemic, I would categorically not have had them had I known we may now be in exactly the same situation we would be in 12 months ago.

Perhaps I'm selfish for saying no, perhaps you're selfish for expecting me to ensure further lockdowns, it's subjective to a point.

My extended family are fit and healthy and have all had covid fairly recently. My granny is dying of cancer and has actual weeks left to live so she's not that arsed about covid, she just wants to see her great grandchildren before she dies.

I feel sorry that you don't have the depth of emotion not to understand why for some people, covid is not the central concern.

I hope everyone has a merry christmas and I hope for everyone's sake, the country isn't asked to go into some form of lockdown. If we do, I will be seeing my friends and family as I see fit.

@steppemum

It would be great if we could avoid lockdown.

However there are some inaccuracies in there.

1 Lockdown isn't to protect the CEV.

It is to make sure we still have functioning health and emergency services etc.

2 There are over 25 million people in groups 1-9 that were given priority for the covid vaccine.

inews.co.uk/news/health/vaccine-priority-groups-1-9-covid-vaccination-schedule-uk-jab-delay-when-explained-919342

We have an older population and also quite an overweight one so we are
relatively at risk as a nation. There are a lot of potentially vulnerable people.

3 We are also heading into winter and it was expected that this would be a difficult one.

4 The CEV numbered over 2 million. so a fair sized number. There are millions of unvaccinated adults that are disproportionately needing Icu beds.

It remains to be seen whether we need to go into lockdown; but with the vaccines, it may well be for a much shorter time.

I do agree with you that we need to get to a place as quickly as possible where young people can enjoy life though.

It seems like 'every man for himself' view amongst a lot of posters is because, for them, the harms of lockdown are far worse than the alternative (esp with many think catching covid would hardly affect them) but as others have said, it's not just covid itself, but the breakdown of essential services that is at risk due to the speed omicron spreads at.

It seems like, if true rapid exponential growth had ripped through society in March 2020 with something as infectious as this particular variant, people may have understood what is now at stake. But because the lockdowns worked to slow the spread before, they think everything will be fine without this time (now that we have vaccines). Do some think that e.g. the HGV drivers and petrol issues (as recent examples) are behind us 100%, forever, and it won't affect you if that kind of disruption happens at once in lots of industries? It's not just about the NHS anymore.

So yes, I will comply if the rules change, despite the govt's hypocrisy, in the hopes that society won't break down.

I think many people are also looking at SA and seeing that the exponential growth didn’t last anywhere as long as what our modellers are predicting. Cases are falling there and hospitalisations have thankfully stayed low. I don’t think we should be making such life changing decisions based on flawed, worst case scenario models when there are other very probable scenarios that are paving out in other countries with much lower vaccination rates than we have.

No.

@MarmitesMyMate
This attitude about being responsible for the lives of strangers is only applied to covid though. If you took everything you have spent on Christmas on a charity which provides anti- parasitic treatment in developing countries you’d be almost guaranteed to save a life or multiple lives. You are much much more likely to save a life that way than by not seeing your family for a few weeks, which has a negligible chance of saving anyone. Are you a selfish murderer for not donating the money?

I do agree with you that we need to get to a place as quickly as possible where young people can enjoy life though.

talk about spectacularly missing the point.

I was replying to a poster who said we were all selfish and not thinking of the welfare of others if we were not wanting a lockdown. She suggested that it was all for the sake of a mince pie.

You now suggest that our young people need to 'enjoy' life.

I am talking about 2 young people, one of whom who has severe anorexia, both were suicidal during last lockdowns, with no mental health services available, kids who are at breaking point, who have struggled with schooling and are now months/years behind.

Not about 'enjoying life'

I am fully aware that the lockdowns are primarily to support NHS. But individuals on this thread are basically saying - you are selfish because without lockdown I might die.
I am just pointing out that other people might die if we DO have lockdowns. It is not selfish to be concerned about the other side.
As I said it is a catch 22 really.

and to be honest, I really don't think we should make any decision that protect the unvaccinated. They have made their choice

“ It seems like 'every man for himself' view amongst a lot of posters is because, for them, the harms of lockdown are far worse than the alternative (esp with many think catching covid would hardly affect them) but as others have said, it's not just covid itself, but the breakdown of essential services that is at risk due to the speed omicron spreads at. ”

I think actually many are taking this into account too. I certainly do. But if you present someone with an immediate, certain and desperate need over one that might happen, what do you think they will choose? To call people selfish under these circumstances, or lacking in understanding, is a failure of understanding yourself. This is why it is immoral to bring people to a point of desperation where they are having to make choices like this.