The tragic news of this Omicron death

[User135644]

Very sad news that someone has now died of Omicron. Are the media going over the top though? I always thought a death was likely at some point. Sadly they may not he the last either.

Is it just the old adage of one death a tragedy, many deaths a statistic?

@Blubells

whether a single person died "with" or "of" is not of any relevance

I think it's of huge relevance, as we're trying to understand how dangerous Omicron really is.

But a single incidence without any context tells you nothing, and you can't reasonably infer anything at all from it, whether or not it's "just with" or "of".

Only when we get a decent evidence set can we begin to draw conclusions.

Also you would usually say died of a blow to the head not died with a blow to the head. The use if the worth "with" doesn't mean the same thing in your context of "with a hammer"

If you're being very particular and forensic with your use of language then yes, but most people don't use language in such a precise manner in everyday conversation...... so if someone says "she died after being hit with a hammer", unless it was someone like a coroner speaking very precisely and whose particular use of terminology was well established, it would be unreasonable to assume that the person didn't die as a direct result of the hammer blow.

I think it's of huge relevance, as we're trying to understand how dangerous Omicron really is.

It's not significant at all without knowing the medical history of the person and even then, it's not always clear.

Very vulnerable people can die from the common cold if it turns into bronchitis or pneumonia.

It's best to assume that some people - elderly or clinically vulnerable- may die from any virus that is mainly respiratory.

Even if Omicron is 'mild' if enough people are infected, a number of them will die, simply because they are at risk for other reasons.

Just like annual 'flu.

@Blubells

We're trying to differentiate between the cause of death and an accompanying condition that happened to exist but didn't cause the death.

Yes, all I'm saying is that it's impossible to differentiate between the two when someone says "she died after being hit with a hammer". You need more information.

My issue is that some people are drawing a similar conclusion from such a simple sentence without any further context when applied to Covid.

Also you would usually say died of a blow to the head not died with a blow to the head

No that doesn't make sense and it's not the same at all.
In the context you use, to and with mean the same thing.

With Omicron, or any variant of Covid, people can die from other diseases or ill health and also covid.

"she died after being hit with a hammer

But why would anyone add the info about the hammer if it had no relevance to the death?

I don't know why people think dying "gasping for breath" is unique to covid. My father would have died gasping for breath had we not insisted they pump him full of morphine and sedatives. Watching him gasp and claw at his throat panicking was horrendous. It was lung cancer however. And he wasn't elderly. He was 64. Gasping for breath isn't just covid patients suffering this way and shouldn't be used as a guilt trip to make people feel bad they might die this way. Plenty of people will die this way, especially without being given drugs to calm them.

@JinglingHellsBells

. It’s not easy to understand the stats for the average lay person.

Do you not mean @Mickarooni It's not easy for the average layperson to understand the stats

Which is very different to what you wrote. If you are pointing out that the average person is a bit dim.

@JinglingHellsBells

Oops! I actually don’t think it’s fair to say the average person is a bit dim. I consider myself average (hey, maybe I am dim!!) and I don’t understand the stats nor how to interpret them! It wasn’t a criticism of the general population, more of a comment. It’s a hugely complex situation.

ConTime I'm sorry about your father. I agree with you, unfortunately many, probably the majority of deaths are not the "passed peacefully in their sleep" ideal.
A large proportion of elderly people have always passed away of pneumonia type illnesses. Whether that is from covid or another pathogen, that experience will not differ. Pneumonia used to be called the old man's friend yet now it's being portrayed as some sort of unique horror.

My mother also died from cancer and it was... not easy. She'd almost gone a few months earlier from a UTI and genuinely it's a pity they treated it so agressively as she was actually suffering far less from that and not really very lucid any more. The treatment bought her four extra months of appalling suffering.

Mickarooni tbf the stats are wildly and sometimes wilfully interpreted in whatever direction fits the bias of whoever is producing them. It's easy enough to do.

My degree was in stats however I've still got called thick or told I don't understand the figures by anyone who happens to disagree with the point I'm making, which is funny or galling depending on my mood.

@ConTime

I don't know why people think dying "gasping for breath" is unique to covid. My father would have died gasping for breath had we not insisted they pump him full of morphine and sedatives. Watching him gasp and claw at his throat panicking was horrendous. It was lung cancer however. And he wasn't elderly. He was 64. Gasping for breath isn't just covid patients suffering this way and shouldn't be used as a guilt trip to make people feel bad they might die this way. Plenty of people will die this way, especially without being given drugs to calm them.

My dad was the same, and the same age, only his was COPD. He caught flu and that was his death sentence. Didn't see anyone caring about wearing a mask during flu season though. He was sedated and looked slightly confused whilst gasping for his last breath when the ventilator was switched off. I'll never forget that image.

It's truly worrying that people have forgotten people die horrifically of many, many things, NOT just covid.

@ChequerBoard
I understand excess deaths perfectly well thanks. We are in the grip of a pandemic so of course there will be a higher level of deaths than expected in an ordinary year. We can't eradicate the virus globally and people aren't willing to live with the level of restrictions that would be required to stop covid circulating in the domestic population.

It therefore follows that people WILL get covid, some people will be hospitalised with it and some people will die with/from it. It isn't always the wrong thing to let people die when it is the kind and sensible thing to do. I believe people have a problem with accepting mortality and the fact that it will be higher when certain factors are present such as in a pandemic. The health system mustn't be overwhelmed and people must be able to access appropriate health care but we cannot be expected to be able to completely neutralise the effect of a virus like covid on the already I'll and vulnerable completely. It just isn't realistic.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Cornettoninja I agree with most of your excellent and nuanced post, but I suspect one of the drivers here is that so many don't accept mortality or appreciate the contribution of other illnesses. As with what happens on here when anyone mentions the huge contribution of obesity, there seems rather a lot that some just don't want to acknowledge

As you're probably aware I'm not one of the posters who denies there's a problem or feels the whole thing's made up, but what is being made up - or perhaps more accurately used to advantage - is some of the narrative around this, which is why I believe accurate information and therefore context is so important

For me the same applies to a PPs question: "What do you do with the elderly/vulnerable patients with Covid? Deny them treatment in ICU?", which rather skirts around the issue that those at the end of life are often "denied" ICU treatment already - not because someone wants to kill them off, but simply because it's not considered a good use of precious resources

Off for my afternoon volunteering spot now, so if I don't seem to reply to anyone for a while, please don't think I'm being rude ...

Thank you for your kind words, it really did make a difference to my day

I agree the narrative and context conveyed to the public is pretty toxic and pretty much everyone is susceptible to it but I’m afraid I don’t agree that this can be countered with with information like comparisons of covid deaths vs eg. Coronary disease deaths shoehorned in for the sake of attempting to provide a perspective of mortality in general.

This isn’t secret information and in the case of coronary disease has been top of many health agendas for many, many years. I’m not sure if it makes the context of covid better or worse tbh, imho we shouldn’t be so complacent about either!

What I can’t quite pinpoint is whether the information we’re presented is being conveyed in a toxic way or whether we as a society are going to interpret everything through a toxic lease regardless of how it’s presented. There have been many examples during this pandemic when people have cried ‘liar’ or claimed something wasn’t ever clarified when it categorically was. The two examples that spring to my mind are travel corridors in 2020 - claims that there was no inkling they could be closed at short notice. It was very clear. The second is the claim that vaccines were going to solve everything, that was never true and explicitly stated on numerous occasions.

I don’t think it’s as simple as pointing the finger at the media, I think there’s something more fundamentally off kilter in society. Pure opinion, but it’s an odd state of affairs when opinion is as respected and protected as fact. These blurred lines have been incredibly harmful.

People absorb information that they want to and appeals to their existing bias. I’m not sure that providing comparisons that are so open to interpretation in terms of comparison is particularly helpful on any level.

Same for my FIL. He was 66 and had mesothelioma. Two years of suffering, with very little treatment available other than steroids and regular chest drains which eventually stopped working. He was in terrible discomfort when he died.

@MaxNormal

Mickarooni tbf the stats are wildly and sometimes wilfully interpreted in whatever direction fits the bias of whoever is producing them. It's easy enough to do.

My degree was in stats however I've still got called thick or told I don't understand the figures by anyone who happens to disagree with the point I'm making, which is funny or galling depending on my mood.

I wouldn’t take too much note of what randomers on MN think of you. The comments they make are usually far more about them and their insecurities than you. :)

@Mickarooni that is a wise post

@MaxNormal

Mickarooni tbf the stats are wildly and sometimes wilfully interpreted in whatever direction fits the bias of whoever is producing them. It's easy enough to do.

My degree was in stats however I've still got called thick or told I don't understand the figures by anyone who happens to disagree with the point I'm making, which is funny or galling depending on my mood.

I think there’s a lot of this from a few posters

The thick or stupid attacks have picked up recently

I know it’s annoying but just keep going

Tragedy?? Tragedy?

I can’t think of many deaths less of a tragedy that a 94 year old passing

I don’t think it’s as simple as pointing the finger at the media, I think there’s something more fundamentally off kilter in society. Pure opinion, but it’s an odd state of affairs when opinion is as respected and protected as fact. These blurred lines have been incredibly harmful

Totally agree with this, Cornettoninja, and I honestly feel a great deal of it is driven by social media and 24/7 news, with so many competing for attention

When it comes to finding facts, there's also the point that trust has been massively eroded, with presentation changing acccrding to what the current agenda/motive happens to be, to say nothing of the way people have turned on each other over this (as we see on here all the time)

Personally I find it all a hell of a shame

The thick or stupid attacks have picked up recently

You're right, Marsha, but if possible I find it better to ignore them
For me, once people resort to insults they've lost whatever credibility they might have had, and fortunately there are many who don't resort to this who it's possible to have a sensible discussion with

We do have proof of it from South Africa who now seem to be getting over their fourth wave with far fewer deaths than they experienced in the 3rd wave (Delta).

It is summer there though.

They keep saying that South Africa has a lot of natural immunity and that might be a factor in mildness of omricon. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
There isn’t any information about whether those who have had vaccines and covid benefit from a booster.
It would make sense that they wouldn’t need one as they have natural and vaccine immunity. There Just seems to be a manic drive to get everyone boosted regardless.

@fromdownwest

Sorry - delayed reply!

Yes - to prevent an onslaught to the NHS so that they CAN treat other non Covid related illnesses successfully.

I think my point is - you cannot deny a Covid patient a bed, or care - whether in ICU or not. Whatever their age or frailty. Otherwise they would die in pain - and with no medical intervention to ease their suffering.

@MaxNormal

A large proportion of elderly people have always passed away of pneumonia type illnesses. Whether that is from covid or another pathogen, that experience will not differ. Pneumonia used to be called the old man's friend yet now it's being portrayed as some sort of unique horror

I'm not sure about this. I have read more than once that there is a greater lucidity with Covid pneumonia, than with pneumonia caused by other things. I can't find any sources now so hopefully if it's true, it's at least not always true.