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To think we just need to use the nightingale hospitals?

305 replies

Mummamama · 11/12/2021 12:46

The (seven I think) nightingale hospitals that were built last year precisely for COVID have barely been used. Why can we not just set these up again and transfer COVID patients to them freeing up normal hospitals for usual things? My understanding was the army was going to he used to staff them, why can this not happen now??
I understand the importance of not overwhelming the NHS but there doesn't seem to be an end game plan anymore, we can't keep having restrictions forever. At some point surely everyone will get COVID and it seems you can get it multiple times. Is it not better then to use our resources to enable the NHS to cope with the inevitable rather than spending huge amounts on lockdowns?

OP posts:
torquewench · 11/12/2021 14:17

Wierd that there's "no staff" for them. Was it on here the other day that I read that the NHS employs 1.2 million people, which is about 1 in 20 employee in the country? 🤔

If the NHS can second cardiac nurses to A&E, or anaesthetists to maternity units (as happened in Wales to a parent of a colleague), why can't other staff be moved to nightingales?

tinkywinkyshandbag · 11/12/2021 14:18

Haven't they decommissioned them?

ancientgran · 11/12/2021 14:22

@torquewench

Wierd that there's "no staff" for them. Was it on here the other day that I read that the NHS employs 1.2 million people, which is about 1 in 20 employee in the country? 🤔

If the NHS can second cardiac nurses to A&E, or anaesthetists to maternity units (as happened in Wales to a parent of a colleague), why can't other staff be moved to nightingales?

Because they are short staffed. One of my kids is a nurse, covid is ripping through their staff and they are likely to be working 12 hr nights for the next week at least, just done 4 x 12 hr days. Owed so much holiday for the last 2 years that they can't imagine ever being able to take it.
viques · 11/12/2021 14:22

@Hellocatshome

I think in reality the Nightingale Hospitals were going to be used as holding areas for the dead and dying in a worst case scenario situation. I cant see how they were ever going to be used as actual hospitals with the intention of treating/curing people.
Bad news on that front too, the emergency mortuary in East London is now a wild flower meadow.........
SquirrelFan · 11/12/2021 14:28

"just" Hmm

wonkylegs · 11/12/2021 14:31

@torquewench you do realise that not all those staff are medical staff
Secretaries, porters, maintenance, office staff, cleaners, cooks ..... I'm pretty sure I don't want a building services manager looking after me when I'm ill.

Zilla1 · 11/12/2021 14:31

We can't recruit GPs, PNs ANPs and so on in primary care despite it being a golden ticket to be paid a fortune so work part time and do nothing all day. The insufficient HCPs we employ were the source of contingency staff to work in Nightingale Hospitals and I and colleagues signed up while working far too many hours seeing patients, doing home visits and rolling out the vaccination programme until the government sabotaged the programme. We were mostly never called up as someone with half a brain realised kicking the legs out of primary care and presumably acute would have worse consequences. IMO the primary purpose of the Nightingale Hospitals was PR to prevent a panic by reassuring the public the powers that be had tools should the pandemic got worse, with a back up purpose of being contingency hospices and morgues. A side function was of channeling money to the private firms who had responsibility for the staffing contracts and supplies - perhaps as with PPE contracts, have a look who gots a piece of that funding? If we see them mentioned again, I'd be afraid rather than reassured

anniegun · 11/12/2021 14:33

The Nightingale hospitals were just Tory propaganda that they were doing things. The reality was they always knew they didnt have the staff to run them at anything more than minimum capacity

Covidtrap · 11/12/2021 14:33

Agree with other previous posters. Its down to staffing, knowledge and experience, other logistics such as equipment, food, documentation. Not just drs and nurses are required but OT/physio/pharmacy/porters etc. Also thebmost complex covid patients definitely need to be in a main hospital as they develop a host of other medical conditions or may have existing co-morbidities we also need to monitor. Also covid can still spread in hospitals even if jabbed people can catch it and spread it to patients and vice versa this requires sometimes whole bays having to be isolated for 10 days resulting in bed blocking aswell. I work for the nhs and currenly everyone seems to be dropping like flies. We have severly understaffed, high sickness rates, poor equipment failures, shortages in other areas directly affecting patients care. I dont know how it will cope. We need more staff in main hospitals let alone nightingale. Patient care is being affected we are trying our best but everyone is starting to feel burnt out again and it cant go on like this.

Dobbysgotthesocks · 11/12/2021 14:35

[quote Cheshirewife]@milly74

There’s a pandemic going on. GPs were already overstretched - now even more so. Most people do not need an in-person appointment (what they want is, sadly, rather irrelevant).[/quote]
But when they do NEED a face to face appointment we should be able to get one. And right now we can't!
There is no point pretending the GP practices are doing enough - they are not. They might be doing their best but it isn't enough and patient care IS suffering!

GatoradeMeBitch · 11/12/2021 14:36

Army! That's what the plan was last year. I know they won't all have much medical knowledge

Oh my God... Imagine being so ill you need hospitalization and standing between you and death are two spotty 18 year olds wondering where the plug is on your life-saving equipment.

EsmeraldaFudge · 11/12/2021 14:39

I don't think people are really understanding the staffing crisis we are experiencing. It's unsustainable.

tapeandglue · 11/12/2021 14:40

@tinkywinkyshandbag

Haven't they decommissioned them?
Well, yes, head to my local Nightingale today and they're doing an expo on vaping.

The Excel is an exhibition centre. It was never going to stay a hospital for long.

Topseyt · 11/12/2021 14:40

@milly74

GPs are not seeing patients, fact
Ours are. Fact.
MaskingForIt · 11/12/2021 14:41

@Mummamama

Thanks everyone who has answered my question about why they can't be used. I appreciate the insight, particularly from those within the NHS. No thanks to those who have tried to call me stupid for asking a question. How does anyone find an answer without asking a question? You were fortunate to be born with all the answers, congratulations, maybe you could apply to work for the government because I think they need the help.

Oh and as this seems to be a hot issue, my GP has been seeing us throughout so I expect it's an issue with individual surgery policies.

People e aren’t born knowing everything, but they do a thing called “reading” whereby they learn things. You might like to try it.

Read a broad range of media, not just the Daily (Hate) Mail, watch Panorama or other in depth news programmes.

Anyone saying “Bring the Army in” is clearly lacking knowledge of how the world (and military) works.

Tiredalwaystired · 11/12/2021 14:41

@torquewench

Wierd that there's "no staff" for them. Was it on here the other day that I read that the NHS employs 1.2 million people, which is about 1 in 20 employee in the country? 🤔

If the NHS can second cardiac nurses to A&E, or anaesthetists to maternity units (as happened in Wales to a parent of a colleague), why can't other staff be moved to nightingales?

My friend is one of those 1.2million. He designs and updated their Trust website. His wife works in finance.

We can send them if you like?

(Actually we did to a degree in January - they were helping to prone patients when things got really bad)

Thinkbiglittleone · 11/12/2021 14:45

Sadly the nightingale hospitals were another badly thought out idea that was rolled out to look like this government cared about its public or had any idea what they were doing.

They could never staff them, so they yet again wasted a whole lot of money that could have actually gone to helping support the NHS through this shit show.

I,very naively, questioned this myself at the start of the pandemic, until I remember to do my research and realise it was a publicity stunt and they were effectively useless.

Motorina · 11/12/2021 14:46

@JaniceBattersby

The nightingales were never ‘hospitals’, they were set up as an alternative when it was thought patients might actually be left dying in hospital corridors. Many hospitals do actually have issues with the number of physical beds they can fit in antiquated buildings, as well as the number of ‘beds’ because of staffing levels.

They were essentially holding pens for people needing CPAP or oxygen so that they didn’t die on the floor. They were a last resort intervention that would be staffed by the army, under the supervision of trained medics, who would essentially just ‘do their best’ in a war-like situation.

Thank God they were never really needed. If you think they should be reopened OP then I’m sure you’d be glad to be ‘treated’ there?

This. Exactly this.

Except they weren't planned as being staffed solely by the army.

The staffing plan (I read it) was 'hygeine teams' of one trained individual at the head end of the patient, and half a dozen untrained or nominally trained people under their command.

Those might include dentists, dental nurses, vets, veterinary nurses, physios, air hostesses, students from across the clinical professions... basically anyone who had half an idea of basic medical hygeine and a DBS was vulnerable for redeployment.

Most of those people are now back in their regular roles and so are no longer available. And, unlike spring 2020, most would resist being redeployed.

Every day roles were mapped onto potential Nightingale roles, and spreadsheets were drawn up with the skills we had, ready for redeployment. I can cannulate and manage an airway, so had a decent chance of being one of those 'more competent' head end people which, given it's 20 years since I've worked on a ward, was a sobering prospect.

I was literally waiting the call. As were my team. It was terrifying.

Some of the comments here say there was no plan. That it was ill thought out. It was actually incredibly well thought out, with a very detailed plan, redeploying people who had just enough skills to be useful in teams under the supervision with a bit more knowledge and/or skills.

As has been said, they were places that people could live or die whilst receiving oxygen and basic care nursing care. They were set up so covid patients didn't literally starve or expire in their own excrement. They were a production line to give very ill people just enough medical support that they had a chance to recover into well people (the wards were arranged in order of severity so people would pass through them as they recovered) or at the least die in a bed rather than in a hospital car park. They also allowed for the decent disposal of bodies to prevent some of the scenes we saw in India.

I'm very grateful they were set up (if we'd needed them and they hadn't been then the chaos and civil disorder would have been beyond awful). I'm even more grateful they weren't needed.

Thinkbiglittleone · 11/12/2021 14:50

@Mummamama

Thanks everyone who has answered my question about why they can't be used. I appreciate the insight, particularly from those within the NHS. No thanks to those who have tried to call me stupid for asking a question. How does anyone find an answer without asking a question? You were fortunate to be born with all the answers, congratulations, maybe you could apply to work for the government because I think they need the help.

Oh and as this seems to be a hot issue, my GP has been seeing us throughout so I expect it's an issue with individual surgery policies.

Ohh Just ignore those who get all uppity. People don't have to answer if it annoys them, It's perfectly acceptable to ask these questions, getting a mix of more straight forward answers in one place is sometimes better than the searching online.
Mummamama · 11/12/2021 14:51

How do you think these articles you read start? Often a journalist will start with a question then seek to find an answer Hmm by asking people.
And actually I couldn't find anything on the internet describing the nightingales really being built to hold the dying.
There is nothing wrong with asking questions.
No, I have no idea how the military works as have no military connections. I'll bet you have no idea how my profession works but I wouldn't call you stupid for asking me questions about it.

OP posts:
Missmissmiiiiiiiiisss · 11/12/2021 14:55

@TakeYourFinalPosition

The army can’t “staff” them in the usual sense… they were never meant to be actual hospitals. They were places where we could ventilate people and provide a basic level of care. Not the type of place you’d want to be admitted personally, with Covid or otherwise.
This. They were places to put people who were going to die so that hospitals could treat the people who still stood a chance. Not great PR to call them covid hospices/morgues. So they plumped for Nightingale Hospitals instead.
RoomOfRequirement · 11/12/2021 14:56

How about you ask yourself WHY it's hard to get a GP appointment. Sorry to the workshy trolls on the thread, but it has nothing to do with the current GPs not wanting to see everyone, and everything to do with a critical shortage of people to actually DO the job. And with patients like you - I can see why! Leaving the NHS was the best decision I ever made, and it's because of people like PPs who don't have a clue what's actually going on so make up a narrative to make themselves feel better. Go train to be a GP if it's so easy, you absolute idiots.

Thinkbiglittleone · 11/12/2021 14:56

Some of the comments here say there was no plan. That it was ill thought out. It was actually incredibly well thought out, with a very detailed plan, redeploying people who had just enough skills to be useful in teams under the supervision with a bit more knowledge and/or skills

Why then were they not utilised rather then sending COVID patients into our hospitals to then be sent out to nursing homes ?

Why were they not used to then allow our hospitals to continue to treat other illnesses, our NHS staff here were mortified that their hospitals were rendered useless to people who needed help because COVID had taken over ?.

They also allowed for the decent disposal of bodies to prevent some of the scenes we saw in India.

Is this when they were used to store bodies rather than treat as was sold to us ?

Motorina · 11/12/2021 15:02

@Thinkbiglittleone they weren't used because the survival rate would have been much lower for those patients than those receiving medical care.

If things had got as bad as it looked like they might, then any care would have been better than none. The hope was if you basically plugged people into oxygen and had unskilled people keep them clean and warm, then a percentage would pull through. It's an awful lot better than saying, "Sorry - this hospital's full - go home and die", which is what happened in India.

But that's no substitute for decent care in a proper hospital by skilled clinicians.

Fortunately the NHS just about managed to keep everyone in the hospitals receiving comprehensive care. And, as others have said, Covid turned out to be a lot more complex to treat than 'give oxygen and hope', so the Nightingales were less suited than we first thought.

Having them and not needing them is a lot less bad than many other outcomes could have been. I for one do not begrudge the money spent because, if they'd been needed, it would have been because the alternative was so much worse.

ilovesooty · 11/12/2021 15:02

@milly74

GPs are not seeing patients, fact
It's not "fact".

I've been seen several times by my GP when it was necessary.

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