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Original poster

What are the chances of lockdown this Christmas?

559 replies

43leftfeet · 05/12/2021 23:19

I've been away this weekend (UK, but I've been distracted and not following the news).

I see there's been talk of Johnson announcing a "ban on Christmas" possibly, around the 17th - or not, depending on what happens with Omicron - is that about right?

I know we can't know yet what's going to happen, but what are people's feelings?

What do you think the restrictions, if any, are likely to be in England & Wales & in Scotland?

OP posts:
Spikeyball · 07/12/2021 07:27

"It’s very difficult to set restrictions and take into account every individual’s circumstances."

The restrictions don't need to. The equality act hasn't gone away.
What my son needs is adjustments that give him a reasonable quality of life and the law even in a pandemic allows for that.
Bojo is still encouraging Christmas parties. I won't be listening to him.

Thismonkeysgonetolidl · 07/12/2021 07:27

@MarshaBradyo I don’t want to discuss to much, but I know someone who lost their life - desperately needed NHS care, and has left a child behind.
So is it a case of - having a life v’s quality of life.
I know it’s a horrible choice - but surely ‘having a life’ is the priority. Even if your quality of life is very poor - you at the very least have some kind of opportunity for that to improve once the virus is under control. Once you’ve lost your life - you have no freedom, no opportunity - nothing.

rrhuth · 07/12/2021 07:36

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@rrhuth not "edgy" at all. Society certainly didn't feel interlinked during lockdown number one when my child and I were essentially abandoned. I expect many now feel the same as me and just won't say it.[/quote]
I don't talk at length about my personal issues on here but I am not a person with a charmed life or without problems.

Society is interlinked, each of us can either be a person who strengthens the links or weakens the links. Lots of people have been abandoned by our messy and at times shitty society, including me at times. But becoming unkind myself never has felt like it would work for me.

It is wrong to castigate and cast out those who have not had a vaccine, even though their decisions are IMO wrong.

MarshaBradyo · 07/12/2021 07:50

[quote Thismonkeysgonetolidl]@MarshaBradyo I don’t want to discuss to much, but I know someone who lost their life - desperately needed NHS care, and has left a child behind.
So is it a case of - having a life v’s quality of life.
I know it’s a horrible choice - but surely ‘having a life’ is the priority. Even if your quality of life is very poor - you at the very least have some kind of opportunity for that to improve once the virus is under control. Once you’ve lost your life - you have no freedom, no opportunity - nothing.[/quote]
I can’t agree with this. Society can’t stop all deaths and it shouldn’t harm the vulnerable (children) in society to do it. Which is the logical end point of that reasoning.

No we shouldn’t do whatever it takes to children as a group to achieve it - on a societal level.

GoldenOmber · 07/12/2021 07:52

Even if your quality of life is very poor - you at the very least have some kind of opportunity for that to improve once the virus is under control.

What does ‘under control’ mean, though? There isn’t going to be a point where we get cases low enough that we can lift all restrictions and have them stay low permanently. And in the long run, people mostly do choose protecting quality of life over avoiding all chance of dying.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 07/12/2021 07:54

@rrhuth I'm not being unkind. I'm saying I'm not prepared to restrict my life and that of my child's to protect people who have chosen not to get vaccinated. I don't care if people don't have the vaccine, but don't then expect others to make sacrifices to facilitate your poor choices.

rrhuth · 07/12/2021 07:59

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@rrhuth I'm not being unkind. I'm saying I'm not prepared to restrict my life and that of my child's to protect people who have chosen not to get vaccinated. I don't care if people don't have the vaccine, but don't then expect others to make sacrifices to facilitate your poor choices.[/quote]
Arghhhhhhhh....

The hospitals get full, your daughter falls off her bike, she sits in the ambulance unable to get treatment... Society is linked. We can't fix this mess by ignoring the complicated reality of how society works.

No one is asking you to care about them, but to care about us.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 07/12/2021 08:04

@rrhuth I'll take that chance. As I said, it shouldn't be the responsibility of the public to protect the NHS when the government can't even be bothered to fund it properly.

GoldenOmber · 07/12/2021 08:06

We can’t expect people to restrict their lives indefinitely for the benefit of the NHS, though. That’s not how public services work. The justice system is underfunded and overwhelmed right now, but we don’t tell people it’s their civic duty to give away their valuables so they don’t get robbed.

Short-term in a crisis restrictions to stop hospitals getting massively overwhelmed was justified. But it’s been two years, we have vaccines, we know the virus won’t be eliminated. We cannot ask people to just keep doing this.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 07/12/2021 08:09

Yes, the answer to this is proper funding of the NHS, not waiting forever to 'get the virus under control'. This is it now, everyone who is going to is double vaccinated now, with lots of people having now had their booster as well, it's winter which is the most difficult time for the NHS as well, there are going to he new strains regularly. It's not going to get much better than this now in terms of the virus is it?

The options are either- lockdowns and restrictions to protect an NHS already on its knees or better funding for the NHS.

rrhuth · 07/12/2021 08:09

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@rrhuth I'll take that chance. As I said, it shouldn't be the responsibility of the public to protect the NHS when the government can't even be bothered to fund it properly.[/quote]
If a majority of voters are anti-society, they can get away with it I guess.

MarshaBradyo · 07/12/2021 08:11

It depends what people are asking for as restrictions as they are not harm free.

RichTeaRichTea · 07/12/2021 08:11

“ surely ‘having a life’ is the priority”

Does this apply to the effects of restrictions and lockdowns on people too? Trust me, I have seen lives lost and children left without parents due to a number of causes, including covid, throughout this pandemic and it is all awful and sad

rrhuth · 07/12/2021 08:13

No one denies the NHS has been badly underfunded by the Conservatives, including very severe cuts in ICU bed numbers by Cameron, but the phrase 'protect the NHS' ultimately means 'protect the British people' not the institution itself.

Kokeshi123 · 07/12/2021 08:20

Some hard decisions may need to be made about the NHS. One or more of the below:

--Increasing tax significantly to pay for it.
--Having the NHS cover fewer things.
--Requiring people to pay upfront for more stuff (appointments, some treatments) or pay the cost of part of some things.
--Moving towards social insurance model like many European countries.
Putting vaccine refusers at the bottom of the priority list when there are winter bed pressuresI don't want this to happen and never thought it could, but then I never thought we'd see vaccine passes, vaccine mandates, or indeed lockdowns themselves. I think it's probably only a matter of time before we see the first countries experimenting with this one.

I don't know which of these things should be done, but I do know that we can't go on like this much longer.

Immigration and births have both fallen sharply as a result of pandemic restrictions: if we carried on like this for decades, we'd be running the risk of bed pressures that are about a hundred times worse in the future due to lack of people to actually work in the NHS in the first place, relative to all the old people whose lives are being extended!

RichTeaRichTea · 07/12/2021 08:20

What I am seeing in my work though is that there is a tipping point where “protect the NHS/British people” (however you want to frame it, I agree with you on that) with lockdowns and restrictions simply push the pressure onto other parts of the system which is arguably just as fatal in terms of numbers of deaths and long term illness and ill health in the long run. But because it’s not acute/ICU people don’t see it in the same way. I don’t have figures or statistics for this - I don’t know where the tipping point is exactly, I’m only going on my experience of the knock-on effects.

paranoidnamechanger · 07/12/2021 08:23

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Yes, the answer to this is proper funding of the NHS, not waiting forever to 'get the virus under control'. This is it now, everyone who is going to is double vaccinated now, with lots of people having now had their booster as well, it's winter which is the most difficult time for the NHS as well, there are going to he new strains regularly. It's not going to get much better than this now in terms of the virus is it?

The options are either- lockdowns and restrictions to protect an NHS already on its knees or better funding for the NHS.

So where will the money come from to fund the NHS? The magical money tree?
rrhuth · 07/12/2021 08:25

So where will the money come from to fund the NHS? The magical money tree?

I think the sneering 'magic money tree' putdown has been thoroughly debunked now. There is money when needed.

lookforthespace · 07/12/2021 08:26

@rrhuth

So where will the money come from to fund the NHS? The magical money tree?

I think the sneering 'magic money tree' putdown has been thoroughly debunked now. There is money when needed.

This

rrhuth · 07/12/2021 08:33

We're spending £1 million every day on consultants for test and trace. There is and always was money. We just need to decide what we want to do with the money.

The sums wasted during covid are eye-watering. We have resources, the disaster economics of austerity were always bullshit, now the reality has been exposed.

paranoidnamechanger · 07/12/2021 08:37

@rrhuth

So where will the money come from to fund the NHS? The magical money tree?

I think the sneering 'magic money tree' putdown has been thoroughly debunked now. There is money when needed.

Has it? I must have missed that. The money - and I’m talking billions - isn’t there. Did you know that a year of restrictions cost us a quarter of a trillion pounds? Why do you think Sunak ended furlough a few months ago? Cut universal credit a little? The government has debts of more than £2tn.
rrhuth · 07/12/2021 08:55

@paranoidnamechanger

There's a whole economic debate about whether debt matters, especially at record low borrowing rates.

The economy is not a household.

rrhuth · 07/12/2021 08:58

I mean, what would it have cost not to do furlough? Furlough could have been done better (our lack of pandemic prep means we had a clumsy scheme open to fraud) but the cost of not having it would have been astronomical if the economy completely collapsed.

rrhuth · 07/12/2021 09:03

Sorry, and to add that Brexit will cost far more.

Those worried about the economic state of Britain - don't fucking talk to me if you are pro-Brexit (yes you, Sunak).

There's a fucking magic money forest for Brexit Angry

PoppityInThe · 07/12/2021 09:45

It's quite depressing but I'm certain they'll be another lockdown in Jan. They won't do it before Xmas, they'll be too much resistance.
I think they realised just shutting shops and keeping schools open was a but pointless, so I suspect it'll be a 'proper' lockdown.
We have to learn to live with covid, we can't be living like this or doing this every year. But I can't see that being the consensus any time soon. Mental health, radicalisation etc due to lockdowns/isolation are a greater risk than covid itself