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Omicron New Variant Thread 2 *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

782 replies

Thewiseoneincognito · 01/12/2021 21:42

Continuation of the last thread

OP posts:
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19
Rade · 03/12/2021 14:28

I think this is one of the better threads I've seen on the covid board.
Less hysteria and no extreme views either way.
Yes it's true it's just "musings on the internet" but for many people that's a way of hearing from people who are either better informed or qualified or have carefully thought out ideas.
Twitter has it's horrible dark corners but many real scientists post theories and ideas on there. Yes I follow most of those listed (in among my gardening twitter Wink)

@BonneMaman15
Recent data shows there is some protection from vaccine to being infected, and more so from being hospitalised.
Much as I loather the phrase "sources please" I'm very interested in where you found this. From a purely selfish POV. I am CEV and was hospitalised with covid. Also triple jabbed. Those two things have given me a feeling of liberation and protection from future infection but I often wonder whether severe illness from covid results in better immunity. I'd love to know the stats for repeat hospitalisation!

TheABC · 03/12/2021 14:29

Does anyone have links to reliable data on hospitalisation? The NHS in our area is bring fucked over anyway by the social care crisis and I don't think there's much more give in the system.

DottyHarmer · 03/12/2021 14:34

I’m almost at the point of bring it on. We are fighting continuous fires with a thimble of water, and it seems nothing can stop Omicron.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2021 14:37

@TheABC

Does anyone have links to reliable data on hospitalisation? The NHS in our area is bring fucked over anyway by the social care crisis and I don't think there's much more give in the system.
Oliver Johnson @BristOliver Now that some previous omicron hope has expired (it does seem to be growing faster, it's not just in South Africa) the main game in town is the m-word. Is it milder? But I think that's tricky to work out, particularly at the moment.

1. You can't tell anything from whether hospitalizations grow exponentially or not. Basically it would be a huge surprise if they didn't, when cases are growing exponentially. The default is that they'll grow at more or less the same exponential rate.

2. In order to determine whether it's milder, you need some confidence in what fraction of infections or cases lead to hospitalization. But this gets into questions of lag: how long from case to admission, when you try to line up the two time series against each other.

3. For example, the @Spectator Data Hub says 2% in the UK at the moment, based on a 10 day lag. But even if you use a different lag you wouldn't get a very different answer, because everything is broadly flat (up or down only 10% or so per week).

4. Whereas in South Africa, where cases are growing something like 500% per week (30% per day!) if you misestimate the lag by a couple of days in either direction, your estimate of "fraction hospitalized" might be out by 70% or more in either direction.

5. You can try to estimate the lag by lining up "the start of the wave" in terms of cases and hospitalizations, but this is tricky because there isn't even a fixed lag, it's a probability distribution (some people are admitted on day 0, some a lot later).

6. Honestly, it's a complicated mess, and I think (boring answer) we need to wait for more data based on actually tracking particular patient outcomes before coming to any firm conclusions.

I was surprised by the % he thinks you could be out by with the data we have atm.

herecomesthsun · 03/12/2021 14:37

We have vaccines. And boosters, we have boosters.

And masks Grin

herecomesthsun · 03/12/2021 14:41

In particular, I'd like to know more about what is happening with the infection rates and outcomes in the littlest children in SA; that's very important.

But I haven't discussed it much on here because a) we don't have the data yet and b) there is so much potential for upsetting people, and it may all (hopefully) be something we don't need to worry so much about.

NotMyCat · 03/12/2021 14:47

I'm taking the max vitamin d dose a day as shielding left me severely deficient (had a high dose course as well)
Figure I would take it even without covid as I need it and it won't do any harm if I do get covid

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2021 14:51

@herecomesthsun

In particular, I'd like to know more about what is happening with the infection rates and outcomes in the littlest children in SA; that's very important.

But I haven't discussed it much on here because a) we don't have the data yet and b) there is so much potential for upsetting people, and it may all (hopefully) be something we don't need to worry so much about.

I think there's more government concern here than is being let on tbh. The news this week that JCVI have been asked to look at vaccinations for 5 - 11 year olds and 'we might get an announcement before Christmas' have set alarm bells ringing for me.

That doesn't mean I think there is evidence of a problem which the government are following up, but I do think there are hints that they are looking at information and lining up strategies because there is a fear that omicron could affect children more than previous waves.

The timing isn't just because the EU have just approved it imho. Its also a realisation that we are likely to see another big wave and that the strategy of herd immunity that we've had for children in this age group, isn'y going to be as viable if we get a huge wave of omicron which evades existing immunity.

It makes me uneasy.

herecomesthsun · 03/12/2021 14:56

I note also the second vaccinations for 12-15s that materialised so quickly last week (though I had thought these would be in the offing eventually).

I note from the recent SA graphs though that 5-9s had the lowest rates (one fairly positive thing)

herecomesthsun · 03/12/2021 15:00

Another thing mentioned by Prof Altmann and co was that there is still some discussion about whether Omicron is really pretty infectious, or really good at evading vaccines or a bit of both.

They seem to think that it is really good at evading vaccines, but that the vaccines, especially with the boosters, are so effective that they will still greatly reduce hospitalisation and death.

I am going to have a look at that bit again.

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2021 15:01

Sturgeon says Scottish Omicron cases will rise in coming days as Steps concert is identified as a source of new variant

Nicola Sturgeon has said that the number of Omicron cases in Scotland is rising and that a Steps concert in Glasgow has been identified as one of the sources.

Source: The Guardian

6 cases linked. From Steps concert at the Hydro on November 22.

The tour had just been binned too after band members and crew had tested positive for covid. No suggestion that these cases were omicron but it certainly suggests thats been a problem with covid on the tour generally. (It was announced Faye Tozer had tested positive on the 20th. She shared an official statement from Steps, she tweeted: "I am baffled and gutted after being so tight on our preventative measures.")

www.itv.com/news/wales/2021-11-29/steps-cancel-cardiff-gig-after-positive-covid-19-cases
Steps cancel Cardiff gig after positive Covid-19 cases (dated 29th November)

Quartz2208 · 03/12/2021 15:05

Not necessarily @RedToothBrush I think they are lining up strategies which are easy to implement and whose negative impact is negligible. I think the JCVI approach to 12-15 was always an unpopular one with voters as you either want to vaccinate your teenager (or be vaccinated) or not. The weird Government one dose approach suited neither side and was becoming increasingly difficult with travel. This variant enables them to neatly sidestep this for the 12-15 and 5-11. A new variant was always going to lead to this regardless of how it affects children

Plus it is looking increasingly likely that natural immunity alone is not sufficient and I think the vaccines are actually being viewed very positively at the moment as the way out so again the timing makes sense

And of course from the antedoctal evidence coming from SA it is the under 5s that it is hitting from whom vaccination has not yet been cleared and for whom it will be the most controversial.

The Government has always I think felt hamstrung with under 18 vaccinations by using the JCVI to create a rollout based on health benefits

FanGirlX · 03/12/2021 15:09

@Thewiseoneincognito

Regardless of whether or not we have a proper lockdown or a return to restrictions, the government must soon introduce financial safety nets for the coming fall out that will result from people cancelling events and staying at home by choice. Otherwise we may start to see cracks forming rather quickly.
Nope, can't afford it. That's why we will end up with lockdown light.

The government are also looking into fraud from the last few lockdowns.

vera99 · 03/12/2021 15:19

I've just lost my BB King's Blue Band gig we were hoping to go to in Chelsea on 17th December. Have cancelled their whole European tour. Damn and blast I've got the blues.

lalahotpants · 03/12/2021 15:25

Not a single person at that steps concert was asked for a vaccine passport or a negative LF test 🤔

vera99 · 03/12/2021 15:31

At my cancelled gig at Under the Bridge, they wanted double vaxxed or an LFT taken in the last 24 hours before entry.

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2021 15:52

@vera99

I've just lost my BB King's Blue Band gig we were hoping to go to in Chelsea on 17th December. Have cancelled their whole European tour. Damn and blast I've got the blues.
Oh it’s sad isn’t it Sad

Do they just refund?

Shimmylikejoanholloway · 03/12/2021 16:23

I’m really worried about the affect on small children. I’ve read a few articles that say it poses a bigger risk to the 0-2 year old group and that more have been hospitalised but I don’t know how reputable the info is.
DS is just coming up to two and has barely been unwell due to various lockdowns and not mingling as much as he would be. The one time he did get Ill he ended up in hospital.
It’s making me very uneasy but I’m trying to stay level headed until we have come cast iron info/statistics.

Misspacorabanne · 03/12/2021 16:31

I know @Shimmy I feel the same. I feel so anxious about covid and the kids being really ill. We've just had delta, thankfully mildly, and now with the young children with omicron going into hospital I'm finding it hard to keep my anxiety in check.

Notashandyta · 03/12/2021 16:33

First time I've felt anxious throughout the whole thing Sad

royco · 03/12/2021 16:39

@Notashandyta

First time I've felt anxious throughout the whole thing Sad
Same actually
manolantern · 03/12/2021 16:39

UKHSA has linked 20 Omicron cases in England with vaccine status.

12 - at least double-vaxed
2 - single-vaxed
6 - unvaccinated

HEALTH WARNING: This tells us almost nothing at the moment. A lot of England is double-vaxed so you would expect that to be biggest absolute number.

Also:

"Interesting. But given the sample is almost certainly selected by international travel history, even I'll concede that calculating a VE number is useless."

twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1466807512603181057

herecomesthsun · 03/12/2021 16:42

We also need the numbers who've had boosters. Boosters ramp up the antibody status so effectively and they are a main plank of our current plan #waiting for more data as per#

AlecTrevelyan006 · 03/12/2021 16:44

@lalahotpants

Not a single person at that steps concert was asked for a vaccine passport or a negative LF test 🤔
Tragedy
vera99 · 03/12/2021 16:45

@MarshaBradyo yes no quibble refund and another UK band in their place but wouldn't be the same. So we took the refund.