Natural immunity BBC article

[Russianmax]

This is not purely about natural immunity. But I thought it was interesting as this article puts natural immunity on an equal footing with vaccine immunity.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59378849

Also it is just interesting that natural immunity has been acknowledged at all.

Not sure what I'm trying to say. Perhaps just that if we could understand that both forms of immunity are important, and this could be discussed in the media more often, there may be less divide between the unvaxxed and vaxxed - and hostility between people in general.

I think that given the questions around natural immunity, and the lack of danger for children with natural infection, it might make sense to avoid vaccinating under 12s, and maybe even teenagers. We might well find that if children are infected naturally as they grow up they will have good immunity to the virus, as is the case with many other endemic infections.

We could always give them the vaccine later on if it appears to be helpful.

I generally avoid new medications for myself or my kids for a few years after they come out, unless there is a very clear need. I can't say I am going to be rushing out to give my younger kids the vaccine though I did with my teenagers. Though I suspect that the government in my country will try to make it difficult to avoid.

T cells were mentioned right at the start by many scientists because they are obviously part of immunology and have been studied for years. There were theories about why some E.Asian countries didn't seem to have large outbreaks because they had some form of protection from the previous SARS outbreak 18 years ago.

this sort of stuff

and this

For some very strange reason though, all talk about them disappeared after about 5 months. And only now is it reappearing

I have no idea why that happened.

It’s not about immunity. It’s about some people not doing their bit for the public good. That’s why antivaxxers are disliked - for their selfishness not for their lack of immunity.

@Magistera

It’s not about immunity. It’s about some people not doing their bit for the public good. That’s why antivaxxers are disliked - for their selfishness not for their lack of immunity.

You talk as if everyone who is unvaccinated is walking around infecting people, deliberately

The discussion here is examining the prospect that people have some natural immunity equal(or better) to a vaccination from having had the disease already. So no threat to anyone.

Also phrases like "It's not about immunity" really don't help in the conversation to unite people.

If it isn't about immunity, what exactly is it about?

@hamstersarse

T cells were mentioned right at the start by many scientists because they are obviously part of immunology and have been studied for years. There were theories about why some E.Asian countries didn't seem to have large outbreaks because they had some form of protection from the previous SARS outbreak 18 years ago.

this sort of stuff

and this

For some very strange reason though, all talk about them disappeared after about 5 months. And only now is it reappearing

I have no idea why that happened.

What do you mean though?

There's been loads of research going on into T-cell mediated immunity (not least a new vaccine being developed to stimulate this response)

Maybe the media doesn't talk about it, but there's a huge amount of scientific research that isn't picked up on - but it's all out there for you to read yourself

@leafyygreens

Yes, the media don't talk about it
Whitty / Valance have never mentioned it
Our whole response doesn't talk about it

Even in places in Europe, e.g. Greece, where they have VP's, showing that you have been infected in the last 6 months is accepted as the same as a vaccine

I think it got dropped about the time we had the whole herd immunity blow up thing

We had to just assume everyone was completely immune naïve....unless they got a vaccine

If it isn't about immunity, what exactly is it about?
I think immunity is a bit of a moot point. Even if it was proven that natural vs vaccine immunity was exactly the same, I think people would still be annoyed at antivaxxers for not doing their bit like everyone else.

My DB and DSIL had Covid very early on. They were asked to give blood to their antibodies could be used. Neither had any.

"We are all aiming for the same goal - not to get Covid. We really are. And there are different ways of getting there."

You do understand that the article refers to natural immunity gained as a result of being infected don't you? So, you have to get Covid and survive it to be able to get the antibodies needed for immunity?

It's not clear to me that you understand that in your approval of this article.

@Magistera

If it isn't about immunity, what exactly is it about? I think immunity is a bit of a moot point. Even if it was proven that natural vs vaccine immunity was exactly the same, I think people would still be annoyed at antivaxxers for not doing their bit like everyone else.

Even if natural vs vaccine is exactly the same you would still be annoyed?

I just can't get on board with that. It seems very....controlling

[quote hamstersarse]@leafyygreens

Yes, the media don't talk about it
Whitty / Valance have never mentioned it
Our whole response doesn't talk about it

Even in places in Europe, e.g. Greece, where they have VP's, showing that you have been infected in the last 6 months is accepted as the same as a vaccine[/quote]
Why would they?

Right now it's not something we can specfically utilise.

We know the rate of re-infection in people, vaccinated and unvaccinated.

We know we can test for antibodies although it is currently unknown what level would correlate to someone being "immune"

There isn't anything of interest the media/the CMOs can report right now. As I said, that doesn't mean it's not being intensively studied and you can search for relevant papers/research teams.

@DustyMaiden

My DB and DSIL had Covid very early on. They were asked to give blood to their antibodies could be used. Neither had any.

But they may have had T Cell immunity.....that's the point

Antibodies don't last. If we kept every antibody we needed in our bloodstream forever our blood would be like tar. Our bodies are much cleverer than that

Even if natural vs vaccine is exactly the same

@hamstersarse

By the point is that in people with a previous infection, vaccinated are far less likely to be reinfected, be severely ill or transmit on

We know that vaccinated will increase your level of immunity, so debating what is better is kind of pointless

We know the rate of re-infection in people, vaccinated and unvaccinated

I don't know whether that is totally clear - do you have some pointers?

@hamstersarse

We know the rate of re-infection in people, vaccinated and unvaccinated

I don't know whether that is totally clear - do you have some pointers?

Yup there's several studies which have been posted quite a few times on MN

here's one conducted by the CDC
www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm7032e1_w

What is added by this report?

Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

What are the implications for public health practice?

To reduce their likelihood for future infection, all eligible persons should be offered COVID-19 vaccine, even those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.

It's not simply that those who do not take the vaccine are all going to be able to equally contribute to natural immunity by recovering quickly from covid with no long lasting effects. Some will end up in intensive care and some will die and some will have long lasting problems from the disease itself.
I don't think that how strong you think your immune system is, is directly proportional to how strong it actually is.

Allowing natural immunity to build up is risky, and really only possible because so many have had vaccines.
That said, so many kids at my DS's school have had covid now, I find myself a lot more relaxed about sending him in! I am just hoping that long term those kids are all ok.

@Magistera

If it isn't about immunity, what exactly is it about? I think immunity is a bit of a moot point. Even if it was proven that natural vs vaccine immunity was exactly the same, I think people would still be annoyed at antivaxxers for not doing their bit like everyone else.

But they are ‘doing their bit’ - they’re contributing to immunity in the population. Isn’t that what people mean by ‘doing their bit’?

By the point is that in people with a previous infection, vaccinated are far less likely to be reinfected, be severely ill or transmit on

What do you mean by ‘vaccinated are less likely to be reinfected’? Are you talking about people who have been infected and then been vaccinated or are you conflating reinfections in previous infected people with breakthrough infections in vaccinated people?

Did you see the recent Lancet paper?

“… fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts.”

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

[quote bumbleymummy]By the point is that in people with a previous infection, vaccinated are far less likely to be reinfected, be severely ill or transmit on

What do you mean by ‘vaccinated are less likely to be reinfected’? Are you talking about people who have been infected and then been vaccinated or are you conflating reinfections in previous infected people with breakthrough infections in vaccinated people?

Did you see the recent Lancet paper?

“… fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts.”

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext[/quote]
I described this in my pp regarding the research paper

Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

To reduce their likelihood for future infection, all eligible persons should be offered COVID-19 vaccine, even those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.

I've seen quite a few posters link you to the CDC research yet funnily enough you never seem to remember/include it in your bank of papers regarding reinfection rates

Yes, I’ve read that one before. Pre-delta. Do you disagree with the findings from the lancet paper above?

Did you see the recent Lancet paper? etc etc

@bumbleymummy as has been said before, there are studies with better design which do show reduced viral load and a reduced duration of being infectious in those vaccinated compared to unvaccinated. Has definitely been discussed with you before, not just from me.

I don't get why the need to cherry pick to such an extent when it comes to this.

As I said on another thread, so that study, and others, are based on a positive test result. You're going to be biasing your analyses towards to the null by doing this, as you're artifically changing who is selected into your sample.

There will be a large number of people walking around unware they have coronavirus. These people will on average have a lower viral load. Numbers are not equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated - vaccianted cohorts tend to have higher rates of asymtomatic or low level symptoms that are missed.

When you randomly sample the general population, like in REACT-2, you are getting a more reliable estimate of what is actually happening, minimising this bias, and these studies have demonstrated lower viral load and reduced duration of being infectious.

Natural immunity requires a covid infection. My DH is currently losing his job due to long covid. There are thousands of NHS staff off with long covid, if you want to risk to get natural immunity that go ahead.