Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Natural immunity BBC article

103 replies

Russianmax · 23/11/2021 10:03

This is not purely about natural immunity. But I thought it was interesting as this article puts natural immunity on an equal footing with vaccine immunity.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59378849

Also it is just interesting that natural immunity has been acknowledged at all.

Not sure what I'm trying to say. Perhaps just that if we could understand that both forms of immunity are important, and this could be discussed in the media more often, there may be less divide between the unvaxxed and vaxxed - and hostility between people in general.

OP posts:
frozendaisy · 23/11/2021 10:06

People love hostility the fuel shortage showed that.

The unvaxxed are a small percentage of the population now, we just ignore their bleetings if they bleet not all do of course.

If it wasn't vaccines or petrol it would be something else.

FflosFfantastig · 23/11/2021 14:35

I agree @Russianmax, and it's nice to see an article that talks about the two being important. It would be nice to think of less division going forwards.

Russianmax · 23/11/2021 14:47

Interesting that there have been only two comments/replies on this.

I honestly think people are not interested in us all getting along and working together with the understanding that everyone has their own different set of circumstances that lead to their own decisions.

This article is not about that of course. But it acknowledges natural immunity as an actual thing. Which I never get the feeling many people do on Mumsnet, for example.

We are all aiming for the same goal - not to get Covid. We really are. And there are different ways of getting there.

OP posts:
Heruka · 23/11/2021 14:50

School run time so no time to reply, but I agree with you op!!

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 14:56

@Russianmax

Interesting that there have been only two comments/replies on this.

I honestly think people are not interested in us all getting along and working together with the understanding that everyone has their own different set of circumstances that lead to their own decisions.

This article is not about that of course. But it acknowledges natural immunity as an actual thing. Which I never get the feeling many people do on Mumsnet, for example.

We are all aiming for the same goal - not to get Covid. We really are. And there are different ways of getting there.

We are all aiming for the same goal - not to get Covid. We really are. And there are different ways of getting there.

But the only way to gain natural immunity is to be infected with COVID?

I think the point that is missing from your post is that there are risks associated with gaining natural immunity, which are worse if you are not vaccinated. This has negative consequences for both the individual (getting acutely ill, long term effects, having to isolate) and the wider population (more pressure on healthcare, disruption to services/education, increased transmission, increased risk of variants)

There's been so much research and reporting on natural immunity (and yes reported in "MSM"), I think it's crazy to say it hasn't been acknowledged. The main argument for not including it in a green pass type scenario is that it increases risk taking behaviour (deliberately trying to get COVID) and that it is not a quantifiable entity yet.

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 14:58

Get vaccinated, don't get vaccinated, but I think it needs to be acknowledged that you are improving the level of immunity you have by doing so.

Plenty of studies out there demonstrating this.

rainrainraincamedowndowndown · 23/11/2021 15:10

Natural immunity is great if you got it without being severely ill. But if you take the chance, there is a chance you get seriously ill or die.

I think natural immunity is as good as vaccine immunity if the illness was unavoidable, but deliberately getting natural immunity instead of being vaccinated may have serious consequences. And there's a chance you get it very mild, and don't get any immunity too, that's the problem with natural immunity. Unpredictable. Next infection may not be so mild.

hamstersarse · 23/11/2021 15:14

Natural immunity has been associated with 'anti-vaxx' people right from the start. It began with the 'herd immunity' argument where it was heresy to imply that people could gain immunity from having a disease, despite decades on knowledge that this was true.

I'd much rather my children have natural immunity. That will most likely last in some form for life.

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 15:18

@hamstersarse

Natural immunity has been associated with 'anti-vaxx' people right from the start. It began with the 'herd immunity' argument where it was heresy to imply that people could gain immunity from having a disease, despite decades on knowledge that this was true.

I'd much rather my children have natural immunity. That will most likely last in some form for life.

It has never been "heresy" to say that infection leads to a level of immunity Hmm

When it became clear how transmissible coronavirus was, the risk of long term complications, the rapid mutation rate AND the fact re-infection can occur relatively quickly, it was very obvious that immunity induced by vaccination alongside suppression of cases was the way forward that would lead to the lowest amounts of deaths & disability (both directly and indirectly)>

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 15:20

I'd much rather my children have natural immunity. That will most likely last in some form for life.

Vaccination does not prevent this from happening, it allows infection to occur whilst minimising the risks of COVID @hamstersarse

Delatron · 23/11/2021 15:41

It’s a good article. I don’t think it’s anti Vax to want more info on natural immunity. Obviously with a novel virus we need the vaccines. But it would be good if natural immunity can also help bring our figures down.

I’d love to see more research on t-cells too. I think things may look a bit less bleak long term if we think immunity on some level lasts longer than the 6 months being discussed at the moment. I don’t really want to have a booster every 6 months. I will
If advised. I’d like to know if my son who currently has Covid might get some long lasting immunity from it. T-cells from SARS were shown to last at least 17 years.

If we think we’re all going to get Covid every year and it’s going to be this disruptive then that’s pretty bleak.

Delatron · 23/11/2021 15:43

I’m also wondering. If you are vaccinated and are exposed to a Covid but don’t fall ill from it do you get an antibody/ t-cell boost from that? So your body has successfully fought off the virus (with the help of the antibodies from the vaccine).

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 15:46

@Delatron

I’m also wondering. If you are vaccinated and are exposed to a Covid but don’t fall ill from it do you get an antibody/ t-cell boost from that? So your body has successfully fought off the virus (with the help of the antibodies from the vaccine).
Yes you do - being exposed will boost your existing level of immunity :)

This is why I don't think the argument about vaccine immunity waning is the huge deal some people seem to think it is - you've got a level of protection for hopefully the first time you're infected, and then subsequent exposures will keep improving your immune response.

Much in the same way as it is for flu.

hamstersarse · 23/11/2021 15:48

@leafyygreens The hysterical reaction to the Great Barrington Declaration which hypothesized the response could be full protection and shielding of vulnerable people while the healthy population gained natural immunity is an example of how we have neglected natural immunity in our response, and continue to do so. We have sort of embraced this approach since July however, letting our young people just get it, but we have very rarely admitted that is what we are doing. Which is strange, maybe because it is on the same lines as the GBD. It most definitely was, and still is, heresy to talk about natural immunity, you do it yourself in your post by saying that people can get it again so that is not OK, but neglect to say that this is not a problem for people who are young, healthy and not vulnerable.

There is no long-term data on how long vaccines do protect people, although it does seem waning is a problem - so is that what we are going to do forever, for people for whom the disease is mild ?Remember that right from the beginning - "for most people the disease will be mild" - are we really going to vaccinate them forever? It is unlikely that natural immunity has the same issues with waning and it also has a 'broader' memory, not just based on a single spike protein which you get from the vaccine.

Delatron · 23/11/2021 15:50

Thanks @leafyygreens that’s good to know.

Hopefully I’ve got a little boost and that will see me through to my booster.

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 15:52

[quote hamstersarse]@leafyygreens The hysterical reaction to the Great Barrington Declaration which hypothesized the response could be full protection and shielding of vulnerable people while the healthy population gained natural immunity is an example of how we have neglected natural immunity in our response, and continue to do so. We have sort of embraced this approach since July however, letting our young people just get it, but we have very rarely admitted that is what we are doing. Which is strange, maybe because it is on the same lines as the GBD. It most definitely was, and still is, heresy to talk about natural immunity, you do it yourself in your post by saying that people can get it again so that is not OK, but neglect to say that this is not a problem for people who are young, healthy and not vulnerable.

There is no long-term data on how long vaccines do protect people, although it does seem waning is a problem - so is that what we are going to do forever, for people for whom the disease is mild ?Remember that right from the beginning - "for most people the disease will be mild" - are we really going to vaccinate them forever? It is unlikely that natural immunity has the same issues with waning and it also has a 'broader' memory, not just based on a single spike protein which you get from the vaccine.[/quote]
See my above post

This is why I don't think the argument about vaccine immunity waning is the huge deal some people seem to think it is - you've got a level of protection for hopefully the first time you're infected, and then subsequent exposures will keep improving your immune response.

Much in the same way as it is for flu.

The issues with the GBD have been explained many many times. It was never feasible to lockdown the vulnerable and let coronavirus circulate uncontrolled in the UK. The overall mortality rate is low but translates to a huge amount of dead people if you are considering the entire UK population - this would have been even worse when hospitals become saturated, meaning patients would not get the care they needed, and lead to non-COVID deaths.

Factors such transmissible coronavirus was, the risk of long term complications, the rapid mutation rate & emergence of new variants, andthe fact re-infection can occur relatively quickly, it was very obvious that immunity induced by vaccination alongside suppression of cases was the way forward that would lead to the lowest amounts of deaths & disability. The GBD makes absolutely no sense, unless you're trying to kill off swathes of people, in light of this information.

Delatron · 23/11/2021 15:55

It’s like the vaccines protect us whilst we move from the novel to endemic stage then hopefully with repeated exposures we get better and better at recognising and fighting it.

With flu I read most people just get a bad case on average every 10 years (without a vaccine). This fits with my experience. So you get a boost of immunity for quite a few years. A vaccine can too that up if you’re vulnerable.

I do think in years to come Covid won’t be an issue at all for our children.

SLH2003 · 23/11/2021 15:56

The trouble with natural immunity is you have to catch Covid to get it and that may well kill you.
So the moral of any story is get vaccinated.

hamstersarse · 23/11/2021 16:27

@SLH2003

The trouble with natural immunity is you have to catch Covid to get it and that may well kill you. So the moral of any story is get vaccinated.
That is certainly where we are with it, but it has always been true that "for most people it is a mild illness"
hamstersarse · 23/11/2021 16:29

@leafyygreens I do understand the logic against the GBD I just wonder if we would have wound up in the same place given the timing of the vaccines anyway, but without all the collateral damage in other areas of society (excess deaths at home are running at £76k for example)

hamstersarse · 23/11/2021 16:30

Not £76k

So used to writing that for work.

Just 76k

doublemonkey · 23/11/2021 16:44

Good to read something positive about immunity in mainstream media.

It has been impossible to talk about immunity from having had covid.
And impossible to have any other conversation outside the current narrative.

We should be regularly testing for T cell immunity and also insuring there are two large cohorts of 1- unvaccinated people and 2 - unvaccinated people with natural immunity. How are we supposed to study Covid, and the vaccines and their effects if we don't have designated distinct groups of people?

I'd happily volunteer for the unvacced natural immunity study.

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 16:53

@doublemonkey

Good to read something positive about immunity in mainstream media.

It has been impossible to talk about immunity from having had covid.
And impossible to have any other conversation outside the current narrative.

We should be regularly testing for T cell immunity and also insuring there are two large cohorts of 1- unvaccinated people and 2 - unvaccinated people with natural immunity. How are we supposed to study Covid, and the vaccines and their effects if we don't have designated distinct groups of people?

I'd happily volunteer for the unvacced natural immunity study.

There are a huge numbe of studies testing for immunity from infection.

also insuring there are two large cohorts of 1- unvaccinated people and 2 - unvaccinated people with natural immunity. How are we supposed to study Covid, and the vaccines and their effects if we don't have designated distinct groups of people?I'd happily volunteer for the unvacced natural immunity study.
There is no way that a study that encourages people to stay unvaccinated (as incentivising is essential when running these kinds of long term cohort studies), when there is an approved vaccine that minimises risk of death & disability, would pass through an ethics board.

leafyygreens · 23/11/2021 16:57

[quote hamstersarse]@leafyygreens I do understand the logic against the GBD I just wonder if we would have wound up in the same place given the timing of the vaccines anyway, but without all the collateral damage in other areas of society (excess deaths at home are running at £76k for example)[/quote]
An uncontrolled pandemic would have led to huge amounts of excess death - this is the main reason the GBD argument quickly and quietly disappeared

So many things essential to a safe & functioning society would start to break down if you had huge amounts of people isolating, unwell, hospitilised, dead, or left with long term complications.

Delatron · 23/11/2021 16:59

I think we’ve done huge amounts of study on antibodies. But I’ve read t-cell testing is more expensive. For whatever reason I just haven’t seen the research on t-cells and Covid. And I think this is a key area as we know some people fight off Covid without even producing antibodies. So do they have lots of lovely t-cells and do those last?

I guess it’s such early days. But from what we know about SARS and t-cells it will be an interesting area of study.