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Covid

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It seems like the U.K. may have a better Covid strategy after all

834 replies

Warhertisuff · 23/11/2021 07:06

... at least since the emergence of Delta. I generally supported the restrictions before last summer, but thought that opening up in July was sensible. It's too early to tell
for sure, but at the moment it looks like the right call.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59378849

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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maddy68 · 23/11/2021 10:09

I'm not so sure. The weather in many of the European countries is that of the UK summer even in the winter
So not sure that line of reasoning fits ?

sashagabadon · 23/11/2021 10:10

But iggly people can’t just argue things that go badly are incompetent / errors BUT things that go well are “luck more than judgement”
That’s where I think the balance is unfair.
It would be equally wrong to argue that just bad luck is responsible for the mistakes and the good things are all planned meticulously.

Luck (good and bad) and planning (good and bad) both play a part.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 23/11/2021 10:12

I thought it was against the law on MN to suggest that the U.K. might ever get anything right.
Watch out, OP - you’ll get yourself banned!

MarshaBradyo · 23/11/2021 10:12

[quote supermoonrising]@MarshaBradyo
Er I haven’t been insulting where?

In the last two pages, you said that one poster wants to see “higher numbers”. I can’t think of much else worse than that.
You also labelled people who criticise the government as “anti UK”.
That’s in just the last two pages. I’ll be generous and just say you need to work on how you communicate online.[/quote]
Well it’s an ongoing theme for which I gave examples

You don’t need to be generous I’ve been pretty clear with the examples of what I mean

ancientgran · 23/11/2021 10:14

@CrunchyCarrot

Honestly I think we can't say that with any certainty until we are looking back on this in a few years' time.
This is so true, it has gone up and down for nearly 2 years, this strategy is working oh no hang on it's that strategy that's working. So it goes on.
ChesterL · 23/11/2021 10:15

How would giving someone space in a shop queue ‘tank the economy’?! 😂😂

Lilifer · 23/11/2021 10:16

[quote user1497207191]@Lilifer

Those excess deaths are more likely to be the people who didn't get to their doctors or hospital for treatment during lockdown and died as a result (huge upsurge in excess deaths in the home during the lockdown). Excess deaths could be from numerous causes and not necessarily from covid.

A agree. Lots of areas in the NHS just came to a stop "due to covid" and are still struggling to re-start. My OH was about to start chemotherapy in March 2020 and got a curt phone call at 9am on the first morning to say it was cancelled and "they'd be in touch". But it got to April, and still nothing heard, so he phoned them only to constantly get an answerphone, so he left numerous message. It got to May, just the same. Then June, just the same. Finally made contact with a human in July and found out they'd actually closed the oncology dept and moved it to a different hospital in the next county and that his chemotherapy should have started months ago as they were still doing it. Didn't occur to them to contact him! That's not down to Covid, it's down to crap NHS admin/management.[/quote]
That's just awful I'm so sorry 😞

Iggly · 23/11/2021 10:19

@sashagabadon

But iggly people can’t just argue things that go badly are incompetent / errors BUT things that go well are “luck more than judgement” That’s where I think the balance is unfair. It would be equally wrong to argue that just bad luck is responsible for the mistakes and the good things are all planned meticulously.

Luck (good and bad) and planning (good and bad) both play a part.

I’m not.

I’m saying that on balance, this government has shown itself to be incompetent. I don’t think its lack of competence should “balance out” the good things. And therefore somehow excuse it from being terrible at its job.

ancientgran · 23/11/2021 10:20

@sashagabadon

But it’s about balance. So yes we cocked up the care homes, that was a deadly failure BUT we have mostly planned the lifting of restrictions well and those decisions have gone well. We shouldn’t have closed schools and playgrounds (a mistake imo) BUT we had an excellent vaccine rollout that prioritised well and has had high uptake. We didn’t support some self employed that fell through the support gaps BUT we had an excellent furlough scheme that saved possibly millions of jobs. We had no where near enough PPE back in the early days, that was a shambles and no doubt caused unnecessary deaths BUT we invested brilliantly in vaccine production and manufacturing and trials which equally saved many lives.

Testing was crap at the beginning and we should not have stopped doing it BUT now we probably have the best testing system in the world, a million a day tests.

That balance is a much fairer look at the whole response. So neither “plague island” nor “best in the world”

The furlough saving millions of jobs has always puzzled me. If those people had been on unpaid leave or had lost their jobs the jobs would have opened up again after lockdown.

Obviously some people would have lost alot of money but then it has always seemed unfair to me that some people got 80% of their salary up to £2,500 a month and others surviving on job seekers.

Can you explain how the jobs were saved?

Lilifer · 23/11/2021 10:21

[quote rrhuth]@Lilifer what is the covid case rate in the parallel Scotland/Wales where they don't wear masks?[/quote]
I'm not sure what you are asking here, but I'm not going to start making up numbers from hypothetical scenarios.

What is clear is that Scotland and Wales kept masks and they are not doing well at all.

supermoonrising · 23/11/2021 10:21

@MarshaBradyo
You don’t need to be generous I’ve been pretty clear with the examples of what I mean

I'm afraid your "examples" are not quite sufficient to label the tens of millions of British people who have criticised the government's handling of this as being "anti UK"

Your line of reasoning, whereby people with differing opinions are labelled as being less patriotic or traitors etc has been well used historically by fascists (though also used by communists, too of course).

And I bring up those political terms as a statement of fact, not an insult. I doubt (and hope) that you yourself are not fascist, but please be aware that is the path you have gone down here. You probably want to take a few steps back.

ArabellaScott · 23/11/2021 10:33

@CrunchyCarrot

Honestly I think we can't say that with any certainty until we are looking back on this in a few years' time.
yes, this.
MarshaBradyo · 23/11/2021 10:33

[quote supermoonrising]@MarshaBradyo
You don’t need to be generous I’ve been pretty clear with the examples of what I mean

I'm afraid your "examples" are not quite sufficient to label the tens of millions of British people who have criticised the government's handling of this as being "anti UK"

Your line of reasoning, whereby people with differing opinions are labelled as being less patriotic or traitors etc has been well used historically by fascists (though also used by communists, too of course).

And I bring up those political terms as a statement of fact, not an insult. I doubt (and hope) that you yourself are not fascist, but please be aware that is the path you have gone down here. You probably want to take a few steps back.[/quote]
Yet I was clear I was talking about mn over last year.

Maybe you need to stop getting so affronted and step back.

And yes I have noticed it, any fascist remarks are hyperbolic insults.

We have been hammered in U.K. and I think this is part of the outcome this kind of self blame. We are self critical (see idea around selfishness) but also attract criticism from o/s

You should probably step back from your path as it is so off.

This is a virus which hits countries differently based on variables. Living in more than U.K. I can see why we were more vulnerable v say Aus or other.

So yes the rhetoric on here has felt extreme.

PAFMO · 23/11/2021 10:36

@Lilifer
There are lots of proven data articles about the excess deaths year on year in the Coronavirus topic. I can't remember the exact % or number in thousands, but experts are of the opinion that a very very high % of the (very high) excess deaths are down to Covid. Whether in the home or not.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 23/11/2021 10:36

According to the Covid Worldometer, on the basis of deaths per 1M population (and where 1 is worst), UK is no 30, Austria is 62 and Germany is 70.

For Active cases (again, 1 is worst), UK is no 3, Germany is and Austria is 19.

So I'm not sure what the UK is doing right?

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 23/11/2021 10:37

Germany is 4, that should say.

PAFMO · 23/11/2021 10:37

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

I thought it was against the law on MN to suggest that the U.K. might ever get anything right. Watch out, OP - you’ll get yourself banned!
Don't be silly.
anniegun · 23/11/2021 10:38

We have killed many more of our own people than almost any other country.

PerfectlyUnsuitable · 23/11/2021 10:40

I am wonderingbwhat 'doing well mean' when we still have the highest covid cases per 100000, the highest mortality rate etc...

If by doing better you man we are looking sort of stable albeit at a very high level, whereas otyher countries have increasing cases, albeit still lower than us, then yay, we are doing well.... Hmm

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2021 10:41

I feel like some of these is glossing over some really serious errors that the government made, which resulted in people dying.

We undoubtedly have made errors. But I certainly don't think we are alone in this. And I don't think the jury is still out in terms of what might yet unfold.

I think we don't pay enough attention to our level of preparedness and general underlying health as a nation in this context either.

We were always a lot more vulnerable because of economic inequality which doesn't exist elsewhere in Europe. That means we were always going to have more problems because of how we are set up as a nation. No matter what policy we pursued we were always going to be in trouble - certainly I think problems with care house in particular were down to low paid, over stretched and under valued staff which were compounded by low hospital bed capacity and low pre pandemic supplies from poor disaster planning. Something that crisis management after the fact, couldn't really mitigate easily.

We were already fucked by Nov 2019 and covid was discovered.

We ended up with more crisis early on, which then spiralled because of those factors.

I definitely think we've had massive communication problems and issues throughout. Even now we've got one regarding boosters. The message hasn't got through about the degree to which they make a difference and we are seeing this idea of them almost being a luxury top up which only the vulnerable need rather than the narrative that there is growing evidence of how important and valuable a third dose is. I think its one we will see more concern about in the coming months.

But. We have got people to agree to get vaccinated and who understand its value in a way that hasn't been replicated everywhere. Its not become drawn along political lines.

These are not inconsequential things to be brushed over. So on balance, I think the UK has done badly and it has been luck more than judgement where we’ve done “better”.

I do think thats also unfair.

Luck was always an unknown factor, but also one you could make a certain guesstimation about and I do think we've largely got to grips with the crisis following the January lockdown and roll out of vaccinations. We have had a good idea about how much Delta changed things and what that meant for strategy earlier than most.

I do think that we've done well in other areas which we don't give credit for and I think thats helped other countries. Particularly with regards to testing.

Yes I do think we've got lucky at this point. I also think we got unlucky with alpha too. Yes high cases made it more likely but other countries with high cases haven't all seen similar.

Once we have got on top of initial crisis we have actually faired ok. And our predictions have been decent.

We do need to improve on is preparedness and communications.

[You also don't mention one of the biggest disasters which has been how appalling and costly a centralised track and trace system has been.]

Crisis situations are always much harder to manage if you have poor planning. Given the situation we ended up in at points, I think we've done well to get back to where we are and the position we go into winter 2021/22. That hasn't been easy and I think we should give credit for being able to turn that around to the degree we managed.

Our vaccine rollout has largely been very good on the whole. Decisions we made about the 12 week delay based on research of other vaccines has held up and look excellent. Deciding to open up despite reservations has so far seemed wise.

I think we've had two major phases of pandemic management - the crisis stage and the controlled management stage. If you look at it from that perspective it does give a clearer idea that so many of our issues stem from chronic long term underfunding and that when we invest wisely in terms of time and money we tend to excel. Luck isn't playing a role to the degree you suggest. Its important but not a deciding factor.

SecretKeeper1 · 23/11/2021 10:46

@anniegun

We have killed many more of our own people than almost any other country.
Not true. There are officially 29 other countries that have lost more citizens per million, and we are slowly but surely falling further down the list.

Impossible to tell while other nations are in the grip of the Delta wave. Let’s see what the stats say in 3/4/6 months time.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 23/11/2021 10:47

I think many of us have been saying similar for ages. No one country will have got this all right - with the possible exceptions of countries who had SARs etc. and so had a population already conversant with pandemic regualtions.

The UK reaction has been out of step with some, in step with others, but that should alweays have been obvious, as a reaction the the specifics of the UK - inlcuding the word geography that seems to give us 'weather' - you know, that thing we are famous for discussing as we have so much more of it than anywhere else.

Then add all the disinformation - like @SofiaMichelle here. Misinformation by people desperately tryng to get their heads round civd (and that includes many journalists, even now).

The real situation is this:

  • we aren't finsihed with it yet
  • it will be years, maybe as much as a decade, before global statistics are analysed carefully enough to show us what has really happened.
GoldenOmber · 23/11/2021 10:47

Why isn't there an option that we wear masks a little longer and covid goes away?

Because wearing masks a little longer won’t make covid go away. Wearing masks a little longer won’t keep case rates low. It won’t avoid big delta surges.

We know this because multiple countries in the world, including the other UK countries outside England and now much of Western Europe, have kept masks and not kept cases low and not avoided big delta surges through having masks. England does not have special English masks which will achieve something different in England.

There was a point a few months ago when here in Scotland, with masks and vaccine passports and WFH guidance and increased ventilation and various other things, we had the highest covid rates of any country anywhere in the world. It was a bit odd, at that time, to have people in England which had much lower case rates, saying “we are doing the worst of anyone in the world, why won’t Boris bring back masks and WFH to nip this in the bud?”

Immaculatemisconception · 23/11/2021 10:48

anniegun

We have killed many more of our own people than almost any other country.

Covid has killed..................

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 23/11/2021 10:48

@anniegun

We have killed many more of our own people than almost any other country.
No. That's the scaremngering again. Whether deliberate or based on an honest belief in the lies of others I have no idea.

But it is not true.

And we won't know the 'truth' for years yet!